[BUILDING] The HaswellRise mod

[WonkeyDonkey]

Besides that, how could I find out the pinout?

I would imagine its out there somewhere, but didnt you want 150W anyway...

 

[JuanLobo]

How about raise the mobo up, and fold the GPU under so it is in its own separate thermal zone? If you put the GPU under, can you cram the PSU beside the mobo, and then have room in front front for a couple fans to blow air back over/under the mobo cooling everything?

 

[dj_aris]

I would imagine its out there somewhere, but didnt you want 150W anyway...

Yes, and that is why I initially started looking for an iMac 21.5" PSU (2012-2013 models are actually 185w). Size wise it was OKish, but it really was impossible to find the pinout. OEMs responded to my e-mails like: "This is a confidential Apple part, we cannot share such information"...

 

[dj_aris]

How about raise the mobo up, and fold the GPU under so it is in its own separate thermal zone? If you put the GPU under, can you cram the PSU beside the mobo, and then have room in front front for a couple fans to blow air back over/under the mobo cooling everything?

First of all, thank you for the input! It's very nice to read people suggestions, making you think of solutions you might have never though on your own.

Unfortunately I can't use any of them . Let me explain; first of all, we don't want to raise the mobo. That's because the closer it gets to the top of the case, the less airflow it allows, thus causing the CPU to run hotter. Then again, how much would I raise it? I mean, my test Radeon 6570 is only one-slot, but the low profile 750's that I'm planning to use are maybe one-and-a-half-slot. The motherboard would have to be very high...

Then, it's impossible to fit the PSU next to the motherboard; it has to be either on the front or the rear of the case, it won't fit otherwise. So, using fans AND an internal PSU at the same time is impossible.

I thought I had tried everything and was ready to give up using a GPU because I wasn't happy with thermals... but then I decided to think out of the box... literally! I have thought of a really weird configuration to exhaust hot air straight out of the case, no GPU modification needed. It might involve scrapping and soldering a few connectors but hopefully it will work. I'll try and test thermals of that idea as soon as possible and report the results! Stay tuned!

 

[WonkeyDonkey]

Yes, and that is why I initially started looking for an iMac 21.5" PSU. But it really was impossible to find the pinout. OEMs responded to my e-mails like: "This is a confidential Apple part, we cannot share such information"...

Wouldnt it be possible, in theory at least, to ping all the outputs with a voltage tester or something and work it out that way, or am I thinking too simplistic about it ?

It just struck me that there are small PSUs out there and plenty to go on at ebay and the like, which would be good for a build like this.

 

[dj_aris]

Wouldnt it be possible, in theory at least, to ping all the outputs with a voltage tester or something and work it out that way, or am I thinking too simplistic about it ?

It just struck me that there are small PSUs out there and plenty to go on at ebay and the like, which would be good for a build like this.

Well, I'm no expert in electronics but I'm afraid it can't be that simple. First of all, the PSU must get jumpstared, which means you'd probably have to short two pins. Which pins could be a very expensive question to answer! Then again, even if you did that, my guess is that you'd end up with some +3.3v, +5v and some +12v outputs. But what load (A) can they handle? Actually, to power the picoPSU you'd only need the +12v output but is that being fed with a current of 12.5A to achieve my target of 150w?

All in all, I don't say it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's very unlikely that someone like me could do it!

 

[vbetts]

Update: thermals testing

I measured thermals for four configurations:

#1: On the bench, 4765T CPU (35w) + Radeon 6570 dGPU (60w)
View attachment 93395

idle temps: CPU=35, GPU=32, SSD=24
stress test: CPU=61, GPU=69, SSD=32
idle power=35w, load power=95w


#2: inside the case, 4765T CPU (35w)
View attachment 93396

idle temps: CPU=40, SSD=29
stress test: CPU=75, SSD=43
idle power=25w, load power=70w

#3: inside the case, 4765T CPU (35w) + Radeon 6570 dGPU (60w) (horizontal)
View attachment 93397

idle temps: CPU=46, GPU=45, SSD=38
stress test: CPU=60, GPU=85, SSD=43
idle power=35w, load power=95w

#4: inside the case, 4765T CPU (35w) + Radeon 6570 dGPU (60w)
(vertical)
View attachment 93402

idle temps: CPU=40, GPU=37, SSD=28
stress test: CPU=60, GPU=82, SSD=43
idle power=35w, load power=95w


Some thoughts...

1) It is very interesting to notice the max temp of the CPU when HD4600 is activated: 75 degrees! When the HD4600 isn't used (#3) the max temp is only 60 degrees despite the fact that the CPU is next to a burning hot GPU and of course the whole case interior is also very hot.

2) The max power draw figures are also very interesting: although 4765T is a 35w part, it seems that this is valid only for the CPU part, otherwise I can't explain why the total draw during the stress test is 70w! When the dGPU is used then we achieve a more easily explainable 35w + 60w = 95w total draw.

3) It is obvious that no part can run at 85 degrees in the long term. So now there are two ways to go: either I completely skip the GPU, or I try to make a custom cooling solution, ventilating the hot air towards a rear exhaust, out of the case, like guru suggested earlier. Now if only I knew how to do that...

4) While in idle the system is almost inaudible (in any configuration), as you may have guessed with these temp figures it is quite loud.

5) There is another workaround, albeit with a major compromise in my initial design plans: I can mount two 60-80mm fans in the front of the case, pushing all hot air to the rear but this means that I forget mounting the PSU inside the case and use the system with an external brick.

Have you looked at the high binned Xeons? They have some that run 25w, and around that range.
http://ark.intel.com/products/80912
http://ark.intel.com/products/75053
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Xeon/Intel-Xeon E3-1230L v3.html
Other than for the gpu, expand the fins so you spread the heat away. You could bring cool air from the back, and vent it out the front with say one or 2 small fans at high RPMs.

Depending how much room you have left, put the gpu over the motherboard and the spot next to the motherboard you can get a small fan to vent in cool air. If you're really daring, you can cut out little vent slots from the bottom and have the cool air come from under the case and put the case on say 1/8" pegs or something to raise it up to get that cool air. Cool air is from the bottom, then you can still vent it from the front.

 

[dj_aris]

Have you looked at the high binned Xeons? They have some that run 25w, and around that range.
http://ark.intel.com/products/80912
http://ark.intel.com/products/75053
http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Xeon/Intel-Xeon E3-1230L v3.html
Other than for the gpu, expand the fins so you spread the heat away. You could bring cool air from the back, and vent it out the front with say one or 2 small fans at high RPMs.

Depending how much room you have left, put the gpu over the motherboard and the spot next to the motherboard you can get a small fan to vent in cool air. If you're really daring, you can cut out little vent slots from the bottom and have the cool air come from under the case and put the case on say 1/8" pegs or something to raise it up to get that cool air. Cool air is from the bottom, then you can still vent it from the front.

Fans unfortunately can't be used unless I take the PSU out of the case, no matter how big or small they might be. Not to mention that small fans in high speeds (as you suggest) are a recipe for a high pitched disaster for my ears .

I could vent air from the sides or the bottom (less effective) but I wouldn't like to drill the case.

These Xeons were very tempting I must say. Especially E3-1230L v3 is maybe a little wonder, 4 cores and 8 threads in a 25w package. However, there are some drawbacks. First of all, I don't know if they are hackintosh friendly. Then, they are very very rare to purchase. And finally, since I was taking a risk regarding the usage of a dGPU, I had to get a CPU with the best possible Haswell graphics, that is 4765T (because other "T" chips use inferior iGPUs).

 

[dj_aris]

I think I found the optimal solution!

If you notice carefully, you'll see that the the top panel case has a slot, meant to let the iMac "foot" to slide in like that:



So, I thought, why not take advantage of that cutout and place the GPU in there? I mean, I know I have two problems to solve: the internal height (which is solved because this way the card can be 5mm higher than the case - in fact the difference is even less, barely noticeable) and the heat dissipation from the GPU (which is also solved because the GPU fan now faces outside the case!). Here's what I mean:



So, I run my tests on this configuration and here are the results:

idle temp: CPU=39, GPU=33, SSD=24
stress test (*): CPU=64, GPU=68, SSD=39

(*) this stress test is even more punishing than my previous ones, I run Geekbench while I had Furmark active.

Conclusion: we have a winner! Temps are much much better than the previous tests, in fact I'm very happy with the fact that I never exceeded 70 degrees, despite the continuous almost 100% CPU+GPU torture.

Now I know some of you will have noticed something very strange with this setup. I am forced to hide the motherboard rear I/O inside the case. Although at first this looks really odd and someone would even argue that I block functionality of the whole system, I have given it a serious thinking and ended up with another solution.

When everything is placed in the case, there about 30-35mm left right next to the motherboard:



This is more than enough to make a custom rear panel with some USB ports (I am thinking two 2.0 and two 3.0), two audio jacks (speakers and mic), the HDMI video out and of course the power inlet as well as master switch, all in vertical format while all their cables should be run in the gap next to the motherboard. This requires a bit of cutting, drilling, stripping and soldering but I think it's worth the trouble. I could also add ethernet but I am really not using it anyway.

Off to find some angled connectors!

 

[kiwisincebirth]

#4: inside the case, 4765T CPU (35w) + Radeon 6570 dGPU (60w)
(vertical)
View attachment 93402

idle temps: CPU=40, GPU=37, SSD=28
stress test: CPU=60, GPU=82, SSD=43
idle power=35w, load power=95w

Some thoughts...

1) It is very interesting to notice the max temp of the CPU when HD4600 is activated: 75 degrees! When the HD4600 isn't used (#3) the max temp is only 60 degrees despite the fact that the CPU is next to a burning hot GPU and of course the whole case interior is also very hot.

2) The max power draw figures are also very interesting: although 4765T is a 35w part, it seems that this is valid only for the CPU part, otherwise I can't explain why the total draw during the stress test is 70w! When the dGPU is used then we achieve a more easily explainable 35w + 60w = 95w total draw.

3) It is obvious that no part can run at 85 degrees in the long term. So now there are two ways to go: either I completely skip the GPU, or I try to make a custom cooling solution, ventilating the hot air towards a rear exhaust, out of the case, like guru suggested earlier. Now if only I knew how to do that...

4) While in idle the system is almost inaudible (in any configuration), as you may have guessed with these temp figures it is quite loud.

5) There is another workaround, albeit with a major compromise in my initial design plans: I can mount two 60-80mm fans in the front of the case, pushing all hot air to the rear but this means that I forget mounting the PSU inside the case and use the system with an external brick.

Hi There, Just catching up on all the posts. Can I make the suggestion that you retest #4 above, but remove the Main PSU from the case, you seemed to have explored every option (including removing the GPU altogether), except this one.

IMHO For any effective cooling you need clearly defined entry point for cool air, and a clearly defined exit point for warm air, and a way to move and channel that air over the components to be cooled from the entry to the exit point. Look at any apple computer (or any windows laptop for that matter) and this is clearly part of the design. Take the trusty Power Mac G5, it had four (drive,gpu,cpu,psu) separate thermal compartments with separate fans in each compartment to move air from the front to the back of the case. The CPU specifically is continually cooled with fresh from outside the case. To see what is possible in a confined space have a read of the following post.

http://www.tonymacx86.com/completed-mods/120480-g4-cube-reinvented.html

Removing the PSU (also a source of heat) from the case and replacing with a couple of very low speed fans to push air from front to the back, would reduce the internal temp of the case and give the GPU the fresh cool air it needs.

Your idea of rotating the MB comes with the issue of the rear IO ports and build complexity to deal with the problem. The question you have to ask yourself is, which compromise you want to make. If it were my decision, an external PSU would win every time

Regards
Kiwi

PS Regarding Comment #2 above, and Assuming you are measuring power usage at the wall, I think you may be confusing the CPU's TDP (thermal design power) with power consumed. Note, also that the motherboard, PSU and other components do also add to the power usage