The 4K Dell OptiMac - 9020 MT - Core i7-4790 - Radeon RX 570 - LG 4K IPS Monitor

[percussive]

My RX 580 is the MSI ARMOR 8G OC (I think it was you who posted a mid-June pointer to the super-deal with rebate?). It's not currently in a machine, but I could try a specific setup for you and report back, if you like. I'll try the 580 again in a well-performing setups which has "Enable Legacy Option ROMs" ticked. I had toggled it after I read into this thread and found @bulbmkr's post #500 which said checking it fixed sleep for him (nicksoph echoed that for iGPU). Did for me, too. So I guess it's possible that I ticked "ELOROMs' after I pulled out the RX 580.

EDIT: For anyone looking for a RX580, pay attention to the OptiMac Guide about card length. I didn't know about this Guide when I purchased this card, and this particular card is too long to fit without removing the drive cage (you know, the metal frame that the two blue 'drive caddies' slide into). Removing the drive cage is non-trivial. I mention more details and show a pic in post #715.


Right now, most testing is on a 9020 MT 4790, 16GB, with HP NVS-510, mDP--DVI (sleeps pretty well).
...and a 9020 MT 4690, 16GB integrated-graphics, DP-->DVI, (sleeps very well). About to put a PNY NVS-510 in that unit.

Both are on BIOS A20, since I'm eventually going to test before/after Geekbench scores against 'latest' BIOS. I also have mDP-->DP, DP-->HDMI and DP-->VGA cables available for testing.

Anybody seen any documentation of exactly what "Enable Legacy Option ROMs" is supposed to do? I have it ticked, but of course I'm still selecting and booting in UEFI mode. All the Google responses seem to be about "Legacy BIOS mode" installs versus UEFI boot mode, which is clearly not what we're doing. "Enable Legacy Option ROMs" is not in the 9020 docs I've found.

EDIT... Here's the description from the BIOS:

Enable Legacy Option ROMs
When in UEFI boot mode, the Enable Legacy Option ROMs option will allow legacy option
ROMS to load. Without this option, only UEFI option ROMs will load.  This option is required
for Legacy boot mode.  This option is not allowed if Secure Boot is enabled.

Still not very helpful, or a complete explanation.

One other unlikely/obscure possibility is that the 4690 (that's super-happy) has a Fenvi PCI-E WiFi card-holder, with a BCM94331CD iMac WiFi card installed in it. Took some work to get the driver to work properly, but perhaps it's a relevant variable to Legacy Option ROMs?

 

[lcann25]

I'm on the fence about doing this. I've got a late 2012 Mac mini, but I can get an i7-4790 right now for $250. I'm just wondering if I should keep the mini, build the OptiMac, or maybe look at doing something a little newer. What say you all?

 

[trs96]

I'm on the fence about doing this. I've got a late 2012 Mac mini, but I can get an i7-4790 right now for $250. I'm just wondering if I should keep the mini, build the OptiMac, or maybe look at doing something a little newer. What say you all?

If you don't have the cash to build a brand new Coffee Lake Refresh system then this is the best way to go. I know that there are Dell 3040's 50's with Skylake and Kabylake CPUs a few years newer. Intel was lazily not improving their CPUs from Haswell through Kabylake. You get the same # of cores and a slight clock speed increase, that's it. If you must have H.265/HEVC decode/encode then you could get a Kaby Lake system for that. You'd likely pay at least $100 more than you would for your 9020/i7-4790 system.

Q: Are you a developer and always need the latest version of Xcode ?

If you use an iMac 15,1 SysDef you should get at least 3-4 years of usefulness out of this system. Especially if you get an AMD graphics card that is supported. We already know for sure the Catalina upgrade will work. When using 15,1 I'm fairly certain that 10.16 will also work. We'll see next year. I've got a feeling that support for the 2012/13 - 13,2 14,2 iMacs will be dropped in 2020. The 27" verisions all have Nvidia GPUs inside. So if 3-4 years of the ability to run Xcode for developing apps works for you then this is the best bang for your buck.

 

[lcann25]

If you don't have the cash to build a brand new Coffee Lake Refresh system then this is the best way to go

I'm a very basic user. I just use it for browsing and surfing, youtube, etc. I just find that the mini gets a little slow and glitchy occasionally. I could build a new Coffee Lake system for around $800 using the Intel graphics. But the 9020 with a small SSD, RAM upgrade and the Intel graphics is going to be around $350. However without an add-on video card it sounds like upgradeability will be short lived. So with adding a $200 ATI card pushing the 9020 up to the $550 range, it's probably a no brainer to build new. My real worry was upgradability on the 9020, and you answered that with your reply. Thank you for the info you have given me trs96.

 

[nicksoph]

There is an issue with the on board graphics on these machines, where the 4600 GPU is being setup as a 5200 and the enable legacy options is a workaround which is efficacious but not understood. The difference that I would like one of the clever people to look into is how the wake process is routed ( that is a poor description because of my ignorance). If anybody does understand what I'm trying to point to then please do pipe up.

 

[trs96]

however without an add-on video card it sounds like upgradability will be short lived

Not really, you can use HD4600 graphics this year and next year with no problems. Works 100% with full support. We know that for sure. So say you need to add an RX 570 two years from now. By that time you'll be able to get one for $70 dollars or less. Not $200. I've even seen 570's for around $90 on Ebay recently.

so with adding a $200 ATI card pushing the 9020 up to the $550 range, it's probably a no brainer to build new

Once newer, faster cards come out people always want to sell their older one at a discounted price. An example is the NVS 510 Quadro. When new 4 years ago, they sold for $250 to $300 or more. Now they are readily available on Ebay for about $40 to $50. They work perfectly with Mojave and Catalina. Provide 4K at 60Hz for 3 or 4 monitors. Drivers are already in macOS. https://www.ebay.com/itm/nVidia-Qua...807855?hash=item4d937b382f:g:oG0AAOSwm~1dmjwa

The full height version for the Dell MT is only 3 dollars more:

PNY NVIDIA Quadro NVS 510 2GB GDDR3 Graphics Card (VCNVS510DVIPB) for sale online | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for PNY NVIDIA Quadro NVS 510 2GB GDDR3 Graphics Card (VCNVS510DVIPB) at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

For what you'll be doing, surfing and general use, the HD4600 graphics work very well for those things. BTW, you don't really need the i7-4790 to surf the net and watch videos. Get an i5-4590 or 4690 and it's more than enough CPU power. That alone can knock $100 off the price of your Optiplex.

If you read some threads focused on Gigabyte X58 motherboards, which came out in 2010, many owners of those could still run Mojave on them 9 years after they bought them by simply getting a newer graphics card. They have i7 CPUs and 16GB of RAM, and they do just fine. I wouldn't call that short lived at all.

 

[trs96]

There is an issue with the on board graphics on these machines, where the 4600 GPU is being setup as a 5200

This really isn't an issue. It was done intentionally. Here is the explanation from moderator jaymonkey:

If you have a Haswell CPU with a HD 4600 IGPU and no dGPU (IE: solo IGPU system) then one would assume that you would use the Intel HD 4600 PlatformID of 0x04160000 as detailed in the Haswell section this post. However from my experience it seems that use of this PlatformID will result in either no output being sent to the monitor or glitchy behaviour. You may have different results but it did not work for me on three different HD 4600 systems. After some trial and error I found that setting the PlatformID to 0x0D220003 (Intel Iris Pro Graphics 5200) and device-id to 0x0412 (Intel HD 4600) with the iMac 14,2 SMBIOS works very well for solo HD 4600 IGPU systems, although if you want to use HDMI you will need to patch the frame buffer (See here). I can't really explain the reason for this oddity but it is most likely down to differences in the AZUL Framebuffer kext that MacOS uses for Haswell IGPU's compared to other Intel IGPU frame buffers.

From Headkaze's framebuffer patching guide:

Gen 4: Haswell (Intel HD Graphics 4200-5200)
- S/L/E/AppleIntelFramebufferAzul.kext
- Support started with OS X 10.9.x
- device-id: 0x0D26 0x0A26 0x0A2E 0x0D22 0x0412
- AAPL,ig-platform-id (desktop): 0x0D220003 (default)

 

[percussive]

Quick update: With the RX580 I mentioned, the 4790 machine does run fine with the Enable Legacy Option ROMs either checked, or unchecked. Boots to desktop, seems to have acceleration, and will shutdown. And it does get to sleep with Legacy Option checked. However when it wakes it has a cropped image of the upper-left portion on the Desktop, which is centered in the screen. I can type my password 'blind' and get to the desktop, but it's flashing completely white (with the mouse cursor still showing) a bit faster than once-per-second. Shutdown is fine.
OTOH, if I uncheck Enable Legacy Option ROMs it boots, sleeps, but waking results in a reboot. So, more to pursue there.

For anyone looking for a RX580, pay attention to the OptiMac Guide about card length. I didn't know about this Guide when I purchased this card, and this particular card is too long to fit without removing the drive cage (you know, the metal frame that the two blue 'drive caddies' slide into). Removing the drive cage is non-trivial.
For mounting SSDs, I used a Corsair dual-SSD tray mounted in the 3.5" drive holder, just behind the Front Panel I/O assembly (that also took some minor drilling). I forgot about those shenanigans until I tried to put this card into a 9020-4690 and saw the interference.

One unrelated - but quite relevant - clue: this build seems very sensitive to certain USB peripherals. Two examples: this build cannot sleep with a HP mouse Model "MOFYUO" P/N 672652-001, or with an Dell keyboard Model "KB216p" DP/N 0N6R8G (two 'freebies' which came with new computers a few months ago, at my work). Swap them out and bang, sleep works.

Edited to correct the problematic keyboard model, at the end

 

[bulbmkr]

Quick update: With the RX580 I mentioned, the 4790 machine does run fine with the Enable Legacy Option ROMs either checked, or unchecked. Boots to desktop, seems to have acceleration, and will shutdown. And it does get to sleep with Legacy Option checked. However when it wakes it has a cropped image of the upper-left portion on the Desktop, which is centered in the screen. I can type my password 'blind' and get to the desktop, but it's flashing completely white (with the mouse cursor still showing) a bit faster than once-per-second. Shutdown is fine.
OTOH, if I uncheck Enable Legacy Option ROMs it boots, sleeps, but waking results in a reboot. So, more to pursue there.

For anyone looking for a RX580, pay attention to the OptiMac Guide about card length. I didn't know about this Guide when I purchased this card, and this particular card is too long to fit without removing the drive cage (you know, the metal frame that the two blue 'drive caddies' slide into). Removing the drive cage is non-trivial.
For mounting SSDs, I used a Corsair dual-SSD tray mounted in the 3.5" drive holder, just behind the Front Panel I/O assembly (that also took some minor drilling). I forgot about those shenanigans until I tried to put this card into a 9020-4690 and saw the interference.

View attachment 428918

One unrelated - but quite relevant - clue: this build seems very sensitive to certain USB peripherals. Two examples: this build cannot sleep with a HP mouse Model "MOFYUO" P/N 672652-001, or with an Dell keyboard Model "KB216p" DP/N 0N6R8G (two 'freebies' which came with new computers a few months ago, at my work). Swap them out and bang, sleep works.

Edited to correct the problematic keyboard model, at the end

That summarizes my experience with RX570 as well.

I do have the same Keyboard. When you said, the build sleeps with this keyboard swapped out, is that with or without the "Legacy Option Roms" enabled? DP/HDMI? Time for a new keyboard .

My magic recipe that has worked all day :
1. Connect the monitor via HDMI. Enable "Legacy Option Roms", choose "AMD Graphics" in BIOS. If "Auto" is selected instead, then Preview app doesn't work for images.
2. Boot. When dGPU gets initialized the monitor starts going in and out of Power-save mode.
3. Wait until hard-disc activity stops.
4. Hit the Power button to initiate sleep. System goes to sleep
5. Wake and Voila... all good from now on, including Sleep-Wake.

 

[percussive]

That summarizes my experience with RX570 as well.

I do have the same Keyboard. When you said, the build sleeps with this keyboard swapped out, is that with or without the "Legacy Option Roms" enabled? DP/HDMI? Time for a new keyboard .

My magic recipe that has worked all day :
1. Connect the monitor via HDMI. Enable "Legacy Option Roms", choose "AMD Graphics" in BIOS. If "Auto" is selected instead, then Preview app doesn't work for images.
2. Boot. When dGPU gets initialized the monitor starts going in and out of Power-save mode.
3. Wait until hard-disc activity stops.
4. Hit the Power button to initiate sleep. System goes to sleep
5. Wake and Voila... all good from now on, including Sleep-Wake.

@bulbmkr ...
Wow, that's some next-level voodoo you have going on there! I'll experiment with your approach.

Before you spend money on a keyboard, I really do suggest that you ask around (friends, IT folks @ work) as USB keyboards are kinda 'a dime a dozen' these days.

Generally, my best experiences are with integrated graphics and "Legacy Option Roms" enabled.
Second best (and still very good) is with NVS510, and "Legacy Option Roms" enabled.
Distant third is with the RX580, but I really feel we'll be able to make progress with it. Very limited testing of the 580, so far.
And mostly this was with DP-->VGA on this testing. A bit with DP-->DVI.

So yeah, if I have the Dell keyboard Model "KB216p" connected, whenever I select "Sleep", it either fails immediately and comes back to the Login screen in a couple of seconds, or (sometimes) it will try to Sleep for around 20-30 seconds before it fails back to the Login screen. I know it's trying/failing because it isn't coming back to the Desktop, it's the Login screen instead.

How did I notice the USB hardware has a role? I had two absolutely identical 9020-4690 units (down to the brand of the RAM).
One slept, one stubbornly refused. <Hmmm... I like a challenge>
Re-installed from scratch on the stubborn one... no change.
Re-installed on both of them at the same time, side-by-side. Tested, and no change.
Huh, how?!
<hours of testing later, the lightbulb comes on>
Swapped the USB keyboards/mice from one unit to the other, and bingo! The problem goes with them. Then I narrowed it down to particular devices.

If we're going to share info about which keyboards/mice works/fail, we should probably list positives as well as negatives. There may well be more going on than simply saying XYZ is 'incompatible' with this build, as everything interacts.