New Apple Silicon Macs: MacBook Air, MacBook Pro, and Mac Mini

[Armoured]

Oh well, it seems end of Hackintosh for sure. May be couple of more years till Apple and most apps on macOS completely drop the x86 architecture. I will probably then at that point format the computer and install Windows 7 or 8 on it.

I'm much less worried about that. I don't expect mine to last forever but a lot longer than a few years. And I don't see Apple outright dropping the existing software / APIs, which is what would cause most software to break/stop being updated, for more like four or five years, possibly longer. And there will still be software available - there are too many machines out there for market to ignore.

But depends what you're using your machine for. Mine is mid-range in terms of power and gear, the main advantage to me is a big box with drives in it and extra computer, separate from the laptops (mine all quite old). Those who want to do gaming or really high-end stuff, different situation.

But there is a wildcard in terms of software and availability: the iOS APIs that right now are (I think) basically the only big part of Big Sur (and on) that doesn't and won't work on Intel. Right now it's mostly a toy. But if/when apple brings touchscreen to the macs, or other features that are 'adopted' from iOS, then there will be a much more compelling reason for developers to work from a unified codebase that doesn't support the intels. Right now I'd think that would mostly apply to games but speculation.

But that's a slightly different situation as it'd be new features - if newer machines have significant new features that are compelling enough to make me drop it, well, okay, at least I'm getting something substantial. Old machines will probalby still have their uses just a bit more limited. And hey, I still haven't moved any of my machines past Mojave because not much compelling I need and ... and I'm still not ready to drop Aperture entirely.

The thing is lately Apple's been dropping older computers that don't really have any substantially different features, just eg not really up to running Metal (for example). Mildly annoying, but I can't really complain that my 2011 macbook pro isn't officially supported - truth is it's too underpowered/runs too hot for pleasant use. Crazy it still works running mojave (patched) at all.

 

[scottkendall]

I'm much less worried about that. I don't expect mine to last forever but a lot longer than a few years. And I don't see Apple outright dropping the existing software / APIs, which is what would cause most software to break/stop being updated, for more like four or five years, possibly longer. And there will still be software available - there are too many machines out there for market to ignore.

But depends what you're using your machine for. Mine is mid-range in terms of power and gear, the main advantage to me is a big box with drives in it and extra computer, separate from the laptops (mine all quite old). Those who want to do gaming or really high-end stuff, different situation.

But there is a wildcard in terms of software and availability: the iOS APIs that right now are (I think) basically the only big part of Big Sur (and on) that doesn't and won't work on Intel. Right now it's mostly a toy. But if/when apple brings touchscreen to the macs, or other features that are 'adopted' from iOS, then there will be a much more compelling reason for developers to work from a unified codebase that doesn't support the intels. Right now I'd think that would mostly apply to games but speculation.

But that's a slightly different situation as it'd be new features - if newer machines have significant new features that are compelling enough to make me drop it, well, okay, at least I'm getting something substantial. Old machines will probalby still have their uses just a bit more limited. And hey, I still haven't moved any of my machines past Mojave because not much compelling I need and ... and I'm still not ready to drop Aperture entirely.

The thing is lately Apple's been dropping older computers that don't really have any substantially different features, just eg not really up to running Metal (for example). Mildly annoying, but I can't really complain that my 2011 macbook pro isn't officially supported - truth is it's too underpowered/runs too hot for pleasant use. Crazy it still works running mojave (patched) at all.

Apple says they are not encouraging developers to stop developing for Intel based Macs. They instead are encouraging them to develop Universal apps using their tools. One of the videos @trs96 posted in this thread talks about just that. They want developers that develop for the MacOS to develop for both ARM and intel platforms at least for the time being. They developed tools that to allow just for that so apps can run natively on both without the need for rosetta. So as long as apple does not drop the developer tools that allow for this, intel Macs should be safe for a good long time.

 

[scottkendall]

The first pictures I've seen online of the SoC in the new M1 Mac mini. It's under the silver heat spreader. Adjacent to that is the ram.

So the memory is on the die and just not under the lid/heat spreader?

Looks like they are using a good amount of thermal paste. Maybe even better quality than what they used in the 2018 mini. Many people demonstrated they could lower CPU temps by replacing that TIM ('18 mini) with something better.

You could cool the 2018 Mac mini significantly by removing the base and placing it on Bestand aluminum laptop stand with a fan blowing up threw the bottom. You were also able to cool it significantly if you used Mac Fan and cranked up the little blower fan to 4000RPM I never saw it go over 2600 RPM other wise.

This is the surprisingly large heatsink. Looks quite substantial for such a small Mac. It even covers the two ram modules to keep those cool too.

You need a big heat sync when you only allow a very thin opening in the bottom to bring air in.

 

[Armoured]

Apple says they are not encouraging developers to stop developing for Intel based Macs. They instead are encouraging them to develop Universal apps using their tools. One of the videos @trs96 posted in this thread talks about just that. They want developers that develop for the MacOS to develop for both ARM and intel platforms at least for the time being. They developed tools that to allow just for that so apps can run natively on both without the need for rosetta. So as long as apple does not drop the developer tools that allow for this, intel Macs should be safe for a good long time.

I agree.

I think there is some potential more for newer software that's effectively ports from iOS/iPadOS because of some API dependencies to not bother with intel versions, but (without much specific knowledge) I don't think that's going to be a big factor for a while. The ability to (sort of) run iOS apps is a toy for now, and there aren't many compelling reasons (hardware differences between M1 macs and intel macs) to do so - yet.

But even then, that (hypothetically) would mostly be not getting as much new software with new features, not being actively dropped from the critical apps you use. It's a long way away before it's a problem.

 

[trs96]

So the memory is on the die and just not under the lid/heat spreader?

That's what it looks like, it has the heatsink sandwiched on top of it and some conductive material there. Desktop PCs like our hacks only have very thin metal heatsinks over the ram modules that are more for looks rather than providing any significant cooling. Apple has a good idea here others will soon copy, I'm sure.

You could cool the 2018 Mac mini significantly by removing the base and placing it on Bestand aluminum laptop stand with a fan blowing up threw the bottom.

Never thought of doing that. If noise levels don't matter, that is one way to squeeze more performance out of the older Intel based minis.

I also noticed the small CMOS battery right next to the SoC. They haven't figured out how to eliminate that yet. I'm amazed at how my 2005 G4 mini (that still works) keeps perfect time and date although I never replaced the CMOS battery. It's been unplugged from power for years at a time, yet when I boot it up, the time is accurate down to the minute.

 

[Sofronis]

Apple has a good idea here others will soon copy, I'm sure.

Hopefully not.

DDR4 consumes very little power and doesn't need much cooling, if at all (unless you start overclocking it). This is more so with DDR5 and especially so with the LPDDR4X that Apple uses, which was specifically designed for embedded use.

I know that I've started to sound like a broken record, but RAM is one of the most common upgrades and Apple has taken it away, charging $200 for an extra 8GB of RAM. You can buy a 64GB 3200MHZ Kit (2x32GB) for $200.

 

[trs96]

RAM is one of the most common upgrades and Apple has taken it away, charging $200 for an extra 8GB of RAM. You can buy a 64GB 3200MHZ Kit (2x32GB) for $200.

The Apple upgrade prices for ram and storage are much too high relative to prices online, no debating that. The M1 chip though, is costing you much less than what you pay for an Intel CPU. The M1 also performs better than most processors Intel has to offer for a PC in this price range. We've seen all the benchmarks and real world performance testing show that.

We also have to remember that the majority of Mac mini buyers are not technically inclined like you and any else that signs in here. They don't know how to choose the ram they need to install. They don't have T6 security drivers to even open up their mini. I've had people bring in their mini that was constantly crashing on them. The Apple Store techs said the logic board was at fault. I opened it up and found they had upgraded the ram with the cheapest 8GB kit they could find on Amazon. It didn't play well with macOS. This was a 2010 mini that had the easily upgradeable ram. When I replaced it with the correct ram kit all the crashes stopped immediately.

I don't see it as a big deal that you have to choose your ram upgrade at the time of purchase. Being able to upgrade it yourself is my preference but we have to pay the Apple ram tax if we want M1 speed and performance.

This video editor demonstrated that he could edit Blackmagic 12K raw video footage with no dropped frames on his new M1 Mac mini. I don't know that a $500+ i9-9900K CPU can do that.

His YT channel is: Patrick Tomasso

The whole Mac mini with 16GB of ram sells for $899. From a professional's perspective, the price is more than reasonable. One of my brothers lives and works in Southern CA as a video pro. He buys lenses for his camera that cost more than $899 so paying $200 for a ram upgrade is not a big deal to him.

 

[trs96]

DDR4 consumes very little power and doesn't need much cooling

Any extra cooling is good in my opinion, even if it doesn't need it.

 

[Micalllee]

But you have to wonder what the effect is going to be on sales of the remaining intel macs. Particularly at the relatively high-end, or at least steps above the basic iMacs.

While I'm anticipating that I'll be moving to an Apple Mini eventually, there are a number of limitations on the newly announced machines that will somewhat protect sales of the existing Intel lineup:

(1) 16 GB max RAM

(2) 2 Displays total

(3) No replacement for BootCamp/Windows virtualization

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others.

 

[Armoured]

While I'm anticipating that I'll be moving to an Apple Mini eventually, there are a number of limitations on the newly announced machines that will somewhat protect sales of the existing Intel lineup:

(1) 16 GB max RAM

(2) 2 Displays total

(3) No replacement for BootCamp/Windows virtualization

That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others.

I think you hit the main ones and I don't disagree.

BUT: the question is whether those who need those higher-end features will purchase now because they really need them ....

...OR delay their purchase until versions of the higher-end machines with M1 are available.

[And of course there are always some percentage of purchases that are made because corporations have purchasing schedules or someone's machine breaks or whatever ... I'm not claiming it will drop to zero. Just that a large number could get delayed while purchasers wait.]

So the question is a bit different (IMO): what features are there that we know won't work on the M1 machines, i.e. if you need that feature, you'll go ahead and buy now.

Here's my list:
1) Windows or other x86-dependent virtualisation (boot camp or not).

That's a pretty short list.

Are there other significant ones? Offhand don't know of any, at least not in wide use.

I understand there are some other similar virtualisation type things (docker or whatever) that will have similar problems temporarily, i.e. not ready now and may not work now, but likely will. (And let's assume there are some other bespoke or specialised solutions too, but my guess is not large numbers of clients)

I don't know, am I missing something?

(Again, I'm assuming for now that most other similar intel-dependent stuff will get arm versions eventually; even if not true, these are pretty small numbers of users, I think).