Intel's 10th Generation CPUs are getting hard to find

[MissCatD]

Yeah, if you are happy to use Windows that's another story. Though in this case, why not make the switch now? It doesn't look like macOS will ever fully use the Alder Lake architecture, and I doubt you'll achieve Z370-490 levels of support and reliability with Z690.

Yeah, that's the struggle - I despise Windows. I only have it installed on my Hack because I need it for school, it can run a few games that Mac can't, and sadly, it's better for streaming. I swear, I experience problems with Windows every time it boots. I dunno, though, I think that about a $3000-investment in Hack-compatible upgrades will not only have a longer-lasting product value, it's also a bit better and far more powerful than a $4700 Macbook Pro with only 16gb RAM, an 8-core CPU, an 8-core GPU and 2Tb of data. Yeah, Apple M1 Silicon is certainly impressive, but it's also still very new. It has future potential, but its new ARM64 architecture (which is currently only prominent in mobile devices, not computers or consoles - someone please correct me if my information is out-of-date) is so different, it's currently using an emulator to run modern programs. It's going to take awhile for companies to start regularly developing for it, and until that point, I think it might not be a bad idea to sit it out for a little-while. When companies are finally willing and synchronized towards accommodating for it, I'll feel more comfortable investing that much money into it.

There's also the lasting factor. I'd like to get an idea of how long-lasting these SoC's are, before deciding to invest. My amazing 2010 Macbook Pro lasted 7 years, but it was also built before Steve Jobs died and Apple went to s*!t. Macbooks don't last as long as they used to, and with M1 Silicon being on the same architecture that runs iPhones (I know many people who have had to replace their iPhones nearly every 1-2 years), I want to see some solid evidence that it's reliable. That's a lot of money, and thus an outrageous gamble, for something still completely new, mysterious and unknown. .....Oooooooooo. *scary-story-over-an-open-fire noises*

...But yeah, that's why. Teehee. ;><
M1's still pretty unpredictable, at this point.

Isn't the better efficiency somewhat spoiled by the lack of support for the architecture (E- and P-Cores)?

It's not that I don't see the benefits, I just don't think it's worth the trouble while there is still some supply of Z490 boards. Especially if someone doesn't have much time like @Darkesha, or wants a production machine like @MissCatD. In my case, not having much time and relying on the machine in the studio, it's no question really.

And nah, I totally get that trade-off. My logic just really lies in what I wrote, above. If it doesn't work out, well, I still have a great streaming system, and I can always re-sell the pc/hack hardware, later. I know we're in a nasty inflation, right now, but my current GPU is selling for nearly double USD used than I got it for new, 4 years ago. Considering the amazing shape it's in, and the fact that I still own the box, I could probably even sell it for double that. Crazy.

I don't see loss in the investment. You can't really take apart and resell an SoC Macbook, though. Unless you're legit just soldering pieces off and selling it in chips. Not that I would ever want to do something as monstrous as that, but its value really will die with time, for the mere fact that it's an all-in-one unit. Risks, sacrifices and all that.

Makes the most sense to me.

 

[e-troc]

Yeah, that's the struggle - I despise Windows. I only have it installed on my Hack because I need it for school, it can run a few games that Mac can't, and sadly, it's better for streaming. I swear, I experience problems with Windows every time it boots.

Same, while I am not religious about the topic, Windows is a clear "not for me".

I dunno, though, I think that about a $3000-investment in Hack-compatible upgrades will not only have a longer-lasting product value, ...

I think this is where our different perspectives come into play, I am not so much thinking about lasting product value but rather the practical implications of my investment, and whether it will elevate or disrupt my workflow. Meaning, Z590 [EDIT: meant Z690] is not an option for me primarily because I expect the Z490 installation to go smoother with less potential problems to solve. Also, the benefits of Z590 [EDIT: meant Z690] won't really impact my workflow positively compared to Z490. My line of thought was, if I upgrade my current build from Z370/8700K to Z490/10900 I'll have invested 300-400€ for a decent performance gain and TB3, all while being able to use @CaseySJ's guide for Open Core installation of Big Sur instead of tinkering until I get it properly installed on my Z370 board.

... it's also a bit better and far more powerful than a $4700 Macbook Pro with only 16gb RAM, an 8-core CPU, an 8-core GPU and 2Tb of data. Yeah, Apple M1 Silicon is certainly impressive, but it's also still very new. It has future potential, but its new ARM64 architecture (which is currently only prominent in mobile devices, not computers or consoles - someone please correct me if my information is out-of-date) is so different, it's currently using an emulator to run modern programs. It's going to take awhile for companies to start regularly developing for it, and until that point, I think it might not be a bad idea to sit it out for a little-while. When companies are finally willing and synchronized towards accommodating for it, I'll feel more comfortable investing that much money into it.

I am in the audio/music realm and companies are adding support left and right. The music tech company I work for is in the process of adopting our massive product line, and things go relatively smoothly. Also, everyone is raving about the performance. Personally, I'd definitely get one of the new MBPs if I could invest that sort of money right now. I believe they are outstanding, worry-free production machines. Which will also be my priority, as much as I love Hackintosh.

There's also the lasting factor. I'd like to get an idea of how long-lasting these SoC's are, before deciding to invest. My amazing 2010 Macbook Pro lasted 7 years, but it was also built before Steve Jobs died and Apple went to s*!t. Macbooks don't last as long as they used to, and with M1 Silicon being on the same architecture that runs iPhones (I know many people who have had to replace their iPhones nearly every 1-2 years), I want to see some solid evidence that it's reliable. That's a lot of money, and thus an outrageous gamble, for something still completely new, mysterious and unknown. .....Oooooooooo. *scary-story-over-an-open-fire noises*

I don't know, I have a 2019 MBP from work and it's holding up extremely well. And that's arguably the worst MBP Apple has ever produced. I have really put this machine through its paces, heavy daily use and travel. People replace their iPhones because they are in the upgrade spiral. You can easily use an iPhone for double or triple that time.

And nah, I totally get that trade-off. My logic just really lies in what I wrote, above. If it doesn't work out, well, I still have a great streaming system, and I can always re-sell the pc/hack hardware, later.

Yeah, I do see that. It's going to be a great computer no matter what and if you have some time to tinker, why not? We all know hacking can be extra rewarding if there are problems to solve. It will certainly feel good to have macOS running on as current build, against the odds. Tricking Apple one more round! I'd just advise against going this route if the main priority is a reliable production machine running macOS.

I know we're in a nasty inflation, right now, but my current GPU is selling for nearly double USD used than I got it for new, 4 years ago. Considering the amazing shape it's in, and the fact that I still own the box, I could probably even sell it for double that. Crazy.

I mean, it's not exactly like that for mainboards and CPUs, but they do hold reasonable value. Though in the current state of the world, I am not really banking on anything to hold its value over longer periods of time. But that's a different discussion.

 

[etorix]

QUESTION, THOUGH! IF ANYONE HAS AN ANSWER! How many of the 16 cores in the Alder Lake CPU would Monterey even recognize? I'd have no surprises if it were only a fraction.

On early attempts it was necessary to either disable E-cores or disable hyper-threading.
But the Acidanthera wizards have just come up with an updated quirk for CPU topology, and now all cores and hyperthreading can be used: That's 16 threads on i5-12600K (6*2+4), 20 threads on i7-12700K and 24 threads on i9-12900K.

 

[etorix]

Yeah, Apple M1 Silicon is certainly impressive, but it's also still very new. It has future potential, but its new ARM64 architecture (which is currently only prominent in mobile devices, not computers or consoles - someone please correct me if my information is out-of-date)

Not so much out-of-date than out-of-touch with what ARM is. ARM64 has been out for a long time and has a small, but ever increasing, market share in servers. Here is an ARM64 monster to ponder: 128 cores and 128 PCI 4.0 lanes per socket, 250 W TDP, in a package that is larger than Xeon Scalable. Not quite a "mobile device" or "console"…

The Ampere Altra Max Review: Pushing it to 128 Cores per Socket

www.anandtech.com

Meaning, Z590 is not an option for me primarily because I expect the Z490 installation to go smoother with less potential problems to solve. Also, the benefits of Z590 won't really impact my workflow positively compared to Z490.

Absolutely! Z490 is the last supported platform, and the last option to use iGPU for display. It is the safe choice for a production machine.
If you always use a dGPU (don't mind the price) and accept a compatibility risk for more performance, then you can now skip Z590 and go straight to Z690. There are reports of users using Z690 in production for music and for Adobe applications in the Golden Build Aero G Z690 thread—though I would suggest to inquire about the compatibility of any critical application before jumping in.
So far hackintoshing Alder Lake is a great success story, but it all began barely one month ago…

 

[e-troc]

Absolutely! Z490 is the last supported platform, and the last option to use iGPU for display. It is the safe choice for a production machine.
If you always use a dGPU (don't mind the price) and accept a compatibility risk for more performance, then you can now skip Z590 and go straight to Z690. There are reports of users using Z690 in production for music and for Adobe applications in the Golden Build Aero G Z690 thread—though I would suggest to inquire about the compatibility of any critical application before jumping in.
So far hackintoshing Alder Lake is a great success story, but it all began barely one month ago…

Yeah, it's promising and the new developments you pointed out above are very exciting! Just not for me at the moment. I meant Z690 in my above post, by the way. Edited.

 

[Darkesha]

Small update:
I returned that i5 and picked up i9 + mobo.
total price for combo is 1050 CAD. $500 a piece.

still not sure if i will change my mind once more…it seems progress is being made on 690 platform. Will reconsider in 2 weeks again.

 

[Rokit5]

hi @Darkesha, I'm in the same boot as you are. I bought z490i and 10600k and all the other hardware just wait to build together. I will be use cad software and PC with that machine.
is it still worth the extra money and upgrade to 12600k?
I know z690i is very problematic but is there will be in the near future better alternative to mini-itx machines?

 

[Darkesha]

^
I think if you are anywhere close to 50% of use between PC/Mac you should think hard to not go 12th gen.
If you are going to be on mac considerably more and expect around 4-5 macOS updates than - get the 10the generation.
In my case the combo above was $999 and I can get i9-12900k ($740) and Z690 Aero ($380) for $120 more.
I would have to check if this board is compatible drivers wise.

Very hard decisions though. I was reading some articles/benchmarks for photoshop and it seems i5-12 is faster than i9-10th generation. So spending all this money for an arguably slower system is a decision it is easy to fight against.

As an alternative I started to think to swap my i7-920 for a 6-core Xeon (5670 or a higher) add the graphics card I already have and update to Big Sur. Than I don't think about it anymore.

 

[Darkesha]

Tomorrow is my last day to return 10th gen for 12th...at the difference of +100CAD.
Seems that @CaseySJ made a good progress with this combo.

Anyone to advise against an imminent upgrade to 12th gen ?
@CaseySJ please chip in if you can.

 

[c-o-pr]

If CaseySJ's project has figured out a solid 12th gen build, with all the cores onboard, do that.

Hold in mind the understanding that at any time you might not be able to update macOS, so you need to track support for future security and OS updates with hope that these can be accommodated, but with the acceptance that at any time you may run into an insurmountable barrier and that's the end of updates.

If you are comfortable with this, the performance increment of 12th gen over 10th is worthwhile.