Asus Z690 ProArt Creator WiFi (Thunderbolt 4) + i7-12700K + AMD RX 6800 XT

[TKPSSS]

Just my opinion:

• Intel's Raptor Lake has too many E-cores
• The ratio of P-cores to E-cores was tilted in favor of P-cores in Alder Lake
• The ratio of P-cores to E-cores has tilted in favor of E-cores in Raptor Lake
• Because macOS treats all of these cores as identical cores, statistically speaking many more of the tasks we perform will be handled by E-cores

In an operating system that is blind to the difference between P-cores and E-cores, macOS becomes E-core dominant with Raptor Lake.

Good insight! Does it imply that the task performance on macOS will be affected?

 

[CaseySJ]

Good insight! Does it imply that the task performance on macOS will be affected?

With Raptor Lake, we’re mainly paying for E-cores. To be fair, P-core single-threaded performance has improved by a few percentage points, but the real improvement is in overall multi-core performance.

Single-threaded apps are statistically more likely to run on E-cores.

Multi-threaded apps will benefit from the overall increase in number of cores.

Apple went in the other direction when they created M1 Pro and M1 Max out of the original M1 design. In the Pro and Max variants, Apple decreased the E-core count by half and doubled the P-core count.

With Raptor Lake, Intel simply doubled the E-core count.

 

[TKPSSS]

With Raptor Lake, we’re mainly paying for E-cores. To be fair, P-core single-threaded performance has improved by a few percentage points, but the real improvement is in overall multi-core performance.

Single-threaded apps are statistically more likely to run on E-cores.

Multi-threaded apps will benefit from the overall increase in number of cores.

Apple went in the other direction when they created M1 Pro and M1 Max out of the original M1 design. In the Pro and Max variants, Apple decreased the E-core count by half and doubled the P-core count.

With Raptor Lake, Intel simply doubled the E-core count.

I get your point now. It seems that the architecture of CPU cores designed by Apple and Intel are running in the opposite direction...

 

[quarkf]

View attachment 556432

macOS x86 support lives on to see another Intel generation. No tweaks needed from an Alder Lake config to run macOS on Raptor Lake. Boots right up.

If you have the i9, and you care about efficiency and temps under an all-core load, then undervolt... stock voltages are too high.

Idle temps seem to be 6-7 degrees higher than Alder Lake however, but idk if that's my cooler/thermal paste application that needs to change, or if Raptor Lake idles higher. Microcenter had the CPUs on sale for $20 less than MSRP, so I couldn't resist.

Heya @dehjomz, incredible news!

I’m trying to decide if I should move from my 18 core 10980xe to the 13900k… from a high end colour grading point of view.

We have similar specs otherwise (6900xt)…

Would you be willing to run the rocket candle benchmark project on Davinci Resolve and post results please? It’s not too much work but you do have note the FPS down manually… (you can also get away with using the free version of resolve but it will watermarks in some tests but still gives a good reading of performance)

Link: Resolve Rocket Science Bench

Cheers

 

[Rag]

Good morning everyone,

I set up my setup, z690 pro art with 13900k, but I'm facing some problems. The first thing I need to solve is the Raid HighPoint 3740 card, which used to work without problems, both on Mac and Windows, now it doesn't recognize it on any system, I plugged the card into the Central Slot. I have other problems to configure but making it work is more important now, any suggestions, would it be something in the Bios? Because I don't believe it's in the EFI because it doesn't load on Windows either. Thanks.

 

[ckrueger99]

Just my opinion:

• Intel's Raptor Lake has too many E-cores
• The ratio of P-cores to E-cores was tilted in favor of P-cores in Alder Lake
• The ratio of P-cores to E-cores has tilted in favor of E-cores in Raptor Lake
• Because macOS treats all of these cores as identical cores, statistically speaking many more of the tasks we perform will be handled by E-cores

In an operating system that is blind to the difference between P-cores and E-cores, macOS becomes E-core dominant with Raptor Lake.

The logic is correct, but the calculation should be based on threads, not cores. The i9 has 32 threads, of which 16 are P and 16 are E. So 50% chance of randomly choosing a P core for single-threaded work.

 

[CaseySJ]

Good morning everyone,

I set up my setup, z690 pro art with 13900k, but I'm facing some problems. The first thing I need to solve is the Raid HighPoint 3740 card, which used to work without problems, both on Mac and Windows, now it doesn't recognize it on any system, I plugged the card into the Central Slot. I have other problems to configure but making it work is more important now, any suggestions, would it be something in the Bios? Because I don't believe it's in the EFI because it doesn't load on Windows either. Thanks.

Does the HighPoint card appear in BIOS? There's a section in BIOS that lists all the PCIe cards.

 

[dehjomz]

Just my opinion:

• Intel's Raptor Lake has too many E-cores
• The ratio of P-cores to E-cores was tilted in favor of P-cores in Alder Lake
• The ratio of P-cores to E-cores has tilted in favor of E-cores in Raptor Lake
• Because macOS treats all of these cores as identical cores, statistically speaking many more of the tasks we perform will be handled by E-cores

In an operating system that is blind to the difference between P-cores and E-cores, macOS becomes E-core dominant with Raptor Lake.

With Raptor Lake, we’re mainly paying for E-cores. To be fair, P-core single-threaded performance has improved by a few percentage points, but the real improvement is in overall multi-core performance.

Single-threaded apps are statistically more likely to run on E-cores.

Multi-threaded apps will benefit from the overall increase in number of cores.

Apple went in the other direction when they created M1 Pro and M1 Max out of the original M1 design. In the Pro and Max variants, Apple decreased the E-core count by half and doubled the P-core count.

With Raptor Lake, Intel simply doubled the E-core count.

Depends on where in the stack you analyze. Raptor Lake's P cores have a better V/F ratio than Alder Lake. They clock higher, and also do so at a lower voltage than what Alder Lake would need to hit the same frequency. Alder Lake couldn't boost to 5.8 Ghz on 2 cores, with an all P-core clock of 5.5 GHz without high voltages and exotic cooling methods. Raptor Lake does this effortlessly out of the box (although 'stock' voltages are too high for what's needed for stability).

Also, another way to look at Raptor Lake is the value for the midrange. The 13700K has the same P+E core count as the 12900K, but comes in at a much lower price point. The 13700K also clocks higher than the 12900K does out of the box.

The 13600K has more E-cores than the 12600K, but the P-cores clock higher. The 13600K is only $29 more expensive than the 12600K, but you get 4 more E-cores, and higher clocks, and as you noted, much better MT performance. The 13600K outperforms the 12700K in many MT benchmarks. More performance, lower price.

Regarding the scheduling of threads on the E-cores vs P-cores, macOS is aware of the difference between P and E cores on ARM/Apple Silicon. We presume that the macOS x86 kernel isn't aware of nor interacts with Intel thread director, and that threads are equally likely to be scheduled on an E-core or P-core. But how are the Cores exposed to the OS in ACPI? Do the E-cores have a lower priority and thus likelihood to be scheduled to run a thread? Has anyone done an empirical analysis to know how good or bad thread scheduling actually is in macOS x86 in task-heavy programs on Alder Lake and now Raptor Lake? Could it be the case the threads are scheduled (more often than not) on P-cores rather than E-cores? I have never noticed a latency problem in macOS on Alder Lake, but others may have better information than me. One thing that I do notice is that in macOS Activity Monitor, Cores 0 & 1 are the most heavily utilized cores, and from what I can tell, those appear to be a P-core(s).

And while E-cores are much maligned (I think people will start to value E-cores as their IPC increases and they support instuctions such as AVX-512, probably when Darkmont comes), the E-cores allow intel to punch far above its weight in the $280 to $450 price point with the 13600K and 13700K. The 13600K pretty much destroys the 7600X/7700X in most non-gaming workloads at a lower price than the 7700x, and the 13700K trades blows with the more expensive 7900X in many tasks.

If and when Intel shrinks its manufacturing node to allow for more P-cores and E-Cores on the same package, AMD will struggle to keep up with its current line up. AMD will have to respond by offering more cores at a lower price to keep up. But can AMD do so (with only P cores and no hybrid E-cores) while keeping power consumption and temps in check? How can the $329 13600K embarass the $399 7700X in MT? E cores seem to allow Intel to offer more MT performance per die area.

 

[Rag]

Does the HighPoint card appear in BIOS? There's a section in BIOS that lists all the PCIe cards.

Thank you @CaseySJ , I tried to locate it, but I didn't see anything citing HighPoint. I saw something to disable the VMD, I disabled it, but it didn't work either, this is definitely related to Bios, because even in Windows you can't locate the card.

 

[CaseySJ]

Thank you @CaseySJ , I tried to locate it, but I didn't see anything citing HighPoint. I saw something to disable the VMD, I disabled it, but it didn't work either, this is definitely related to Bios, because even in Windows you can't locate the card.

Did the card work before in the same (middle) slot?