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making a clone of a Catalina or Big Sur system drive

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I am trying to clone my system drive. I used carbon cloner to back up the drive but it doesn't appear to have backed up the hidden preboot, data and recovery partitions. Looking for advice as to how to make this work. Pre catalina this was easy...
 
I am trying to clone my system drive. I used carbon cloner to back up the drive but it doesn't appear to have backed up the hidden preboot, data and recovery partitions. Looking for advice as to how to make this work. Pre catalina this was easy...
You can go at this 2 ways

1) If you are using OpenCore, Use CCC Legacy Bootable Backup Assistant (Apple APFS Replication Utility) to make a full drive clone: Choose this option for destination drive; it requires a re-format of the destination and a total copy of the source drive. If any drive error occurs during the copy the clone operation fails with a cryptic error and the target is useless. You will need to add your OC EFI folder to the EFI part after the clone succeeds. The target must be formatted for Mac for CCC to offer the Legacy Assistant option, but it gets re-formatted by the replicator and all existing data is discarded.

2) Do a clean install of macOS on the target, with the same implications of any hack install, then use Migration Assistant to pull data from a backup made by CCC, or otherwise.
 
thank you to both of you for responding - I have made a back up of catalina system drive using ccc legacy bootable backup assistant. This all looks right in disk utility after in terms of structure. Booted from my usb drive to open core but it doesn't show up as a system drive choice in Open Core? This means Ive got something wrong. Just not sure what it is....
 
thank you to both of you for responding - I have made a back up of catalina system drive using ccc legacy bootable backup assistant. This all looks right in disk utility after in terms of structure. Booted from my usb drive to open core but it doesn't show up as a system drive choice in Open Core? This means Ive got something wrong. Just not sure what it is....
I don't know details of how OC detects installations... It's always just worked for me.

Are you running an old version of OC? If so, update.

I think there might be a limited number of items the OC text mode picker can display? I vaguely recall running into this using an OC-based update fix for unsupported Mac: the list was limited to 9 items but the needed partitioning was 11 or some such.

Another possible hazard is the drive label for the clone will be the same as the source, so you might get confused at list in the boot picker — or not — Just be sure you know which installation you're looking at.

There also may be some config at play that can tailor the picker and it's rules for including or omitting installations. I've never carefully read the OC documentation on this point.

(Changing the boot picker label for a clone requires a bit of kung-fu, which I can post later if needed — it's kind of a nerdy interesting topic in its own right because there's a funky legacy aspect about how drive labels are stored which may or may not come into play. The lore I found was from a linux nerd who looked really close at how mac bridges from firmware to system volume. The fix is pretty easy but almost no one could ever figure it out on their own.)
 
I don't know details of how OC detects installations... It's always just worked for me.

Are you running an old version of OC? If so, update.

I think there might be a limited number of items the OC text mode picker can display? I vaguely recall running into this using an OC-based update fix for unsupported Mac: the list was limited to 9 items but the needed partitioning was 11 or some such.

Another possible hazard is the drive label for the clone will be the same as the source, so you might get confused at list in the boot picker — or not — Just be sure you know which installation you're looking at.

There also may be some config at play that can tailor the picker and it's rules for including or omitting installations. I've never carefully read the OC documentation on this point.

(Changing the boot picker label for a clone requires a bit of kung-fu, which I can post later if needed — it's kind of a nerdy interesting topic in its own right because there's a funky legacy aspect about how drive labels are stored which may or may not come into play. The lore I found was from a linux nerd who looked really close at how mac bridges from firmware to system volume. The fix is pretty easy but almost no one could ever figure it out on their own.)
Hi @c-o-pr

thank you for the info - Im currently re cloning via ccc - The clone came up in my machine as P2 not UEFI which I can't understand. Im cloning a catalina NVME system drive to an SSD.

Do you understand anything about why BIOS puts some cards PCIe cards in pci-bridge mode? Its a different issue ive come up against. Apparently that's not how the addressing should be? I only mention this as the word bridge has been driving me mad this week..:)
 
I don't know the term P2...

Partition 2?
SATA port 2?

Sounds BIOS-specific.

(EDITED to correct followinghistory — beware I've cobbled this story together from bits and pieces so it prolly has errors)

So WRT Catalina, there are some tricky angles. Apple did two big things with that version:

- Introduced APFS as default and required drive format. APFS was introduced around Sierra but you could avoid up through High Sierra.

And...

- Introduced read-only System Volume. CCC could still work with these but it was getting more complex due to APFS container volume of system and "Data" partitions, firm links between user apps/data and the system, APFS snapshots, and APFS TimeMachine implications.

Firm-linking is a way of connecting immutable system files between the SSV to user modifiable files in Data while providing a folder structure that looks like pre-SSV versions of macOS. Basically folders need to work while including and hiding the detail that some files can't be changed and there's no mechanism that can possible override them.

This all made thinking about user data backup much trickier. CCC could still do an incremental bootable clone, but CCC incremental clones became unreliable because macOS updates could cause the backup drive's system and data partitions to get out of sync, depending on how the user did backups. At that time Bimbich began to face the implications of APFS by recommending a Data-only backup and recovery with OS reinstall and Migration Assistant.

Then in Big Sur read-only system volume became Signed System Volume (SSV) where Apple crypto signs the read-only system. CCC incrementals cannot work with this because CCC can't manage the signing. Apple APFS Replicator can, but it's not designed for incremental backups. From there CCC incremental bootable backups were no longer possible and Bombich added Legacy Bootable Backup Assistant, which employs Apple APFS Replicator with its harsh constraint of a target reformat, full copy no incrementals no exclusions, and I/O errors cannot be tolerated.

SSV is above and beyond other features like read-only system, SIP and Gatekeeper: it locks the core system files from being modified by anyone but Apple. How crypto is applied is beyond my understanding, and I am offering an oversimplified view.

So what we face as users is that when you say "Catalina" you could be talking about classic macOS or SSV macOS.

From perspective of understanding UEFI booting this change is subdued, because most of the differences appear after macOS has booted. But from perspective of drive structure and tools for drive mgmt it matters a lot! For example, HFS+ boot and APFS boot layout work very differently and filesystems are covered by different OC modules. Vintage Macs required a firmware update from Apple to handle APFS even before SSV was introduced.

So any troubleshooting can get confusing and this Catalina evolution is especially so.

At Big Sur it is APFS SSV only. But Apple didn't fix things like installation drive renaming until Monterey. So there are big and little pitfalls.

You are talking about how BIOS presents drives, which I find confusing because once you choose an OC partition as visible in BIOS, BIOS naming no longer matters as the drives are reckoned by OC or whatever bootloader.

So it's important to get terminology clear.
 
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Hi @c-o-pr

sorry for the delay in responding. I think I may have muddied the waters with the bios stuff. read your reply - thank you for the information. What a minefield this appears to be. So.... I have a Catalina NVME which contains my system (APFS). Ive made four attempts at cloning this drive to an ssd now via CCC with "make bootable" function selected and still can't get the result to become available in OC when booting from a EFI from a different source. Ive checked in disk utility and the volume structure on the destination looks ok so I am at a loss. CCC reformats the drive before cloning. It shouldn't be this hard should it?....
 
I have a Catalina NVME which contains my system (APFS). Ive made four attempts at cloning this drive to an ssd
When you write "ssd" I read that as SATA ssd?

You are using on-board SATA, not a PCI add-on card?

What if you copied you OC EFI to the SATA and picked it in BIOS boot... That would rule out any possibility the SATA drive is not present to OC.

In some older systems a SATA fix is needed for onboard ports, but I don't recall if this was needed for OC basic functionality or for OS? Please search for this.

I've never run into the trouble you report using the same approach so I can't really help, only wave my hands. My OC config sees attached SATA volumes including Windows.

Have to think in terms of further detail...

If you suspect the cloning is not working, reinstalling macOS on top of the clone target would tell you: if OC still can't see it then obviously the problem lies elsewhere.

I will post if anything else comes to mind, but I don't have any direct experience with your situation.

Best to you
 
When you write "ssd" I read that as SATA ssd?
yes - for the cloning purpose Im using ccc on an M1 Mac - both nvme and sata adapter are connected to a usb3 hub
You are using on-board SATA, not a PCI add-on card?
both nvme and sata adapter are connected to a usb3 hub- when connected back to my main machine I have tried Sata via on board SSD Bay or a USB3 to SATA cable .
What if you copied you OC EFI to the SATA and picked it in BIOS boot... That would rule out any possibility the SATA drive is not present to OC.
I can try this - the UEFI is available in Bios Boot menu however any system Ive created is available to me on OC boot regardless of if it has an EFI or not. The cloned one is the only one that isnt suggesting the clone isnt correct to me....
In some older systems a SATA fix is needed for onboard ports, but I don't recall if this was needed for OC basic functionality or for OS? Please search for this.
ok
I've never run into the trouble you report using the same approach so I can't really help, only wave my hands. My OC config sees attached SATA volumes including Windows.

Have to think in terms of further detail...

If you suspect the cloning is not working, reinstalling macOS on top of the clone target would tell you: if OC still can't see it then obviously the problem lies elsewhere.

I will post if anything else comes to mind, but I don't have any direct experience with your situation.

Best to you
 
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