Contribute
Register

Debate - NVidia, AMD and Apple

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jul 12, 2016
Messages
3,089
Motherboard
Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5
CPU
i9-9900K
Graphics
RX 6900 XT
Mac
  1. MacBook Pro
  2. Mac mini
  3. Mac Pro
Mobile Phone
  1. iOS
I understand the sentiment behind this but I don't see NVIDIA as the victim in this as much as Apple's customers. It's deeply problematic that the best GPU technology is barred from the platform and it calls into question the whole notion of the Mac as a serious high-end professional option. Metal is all well and good and it does reduce the gap between AMD/ OpenCL and NVIDIA/CUDA performance in an app like Resolve for example. The gap is not closed though and sometimes NVIDIA/CUDA is simply a better option. The sight of the Apple media and fanboys getting all excited over a mid-range gaming GPU like the 5700XT or an obsolete-but-passed-as-leading-edge GPU like the Pro Vega II is pretty alarming and unedifying in my view.

What should be alarming to you that nvidia did not care enough about the users to make a proper driver or allow Apple to make the driver. Apple only barred them after. No one will ever know the whole truth. But nvidia high Sierra web driver caused lots of issues that nvidia could not or would not fix.
 
I understand the sentiment behind this but I don't see NVIDIA as the victim in this as much as Apple's customers. It's deeply problematic that the best GPU technology is barred from the platform and it calls into question the whole notion of the Mac as a serious high-end professional option. Metal is all well and good and it does reduce the gap between AMD/ OpenCL and NVIDIA/CUDA performance in an app like Resolve for example. The gap is not closed though and sometimes NVIDIA/CUDA is simply a better option. The sight of the Apple media and fanboys getting all excited over a mid-range gaming GPU like the 5700XT or an obsolete-but-passed-as-leading-edge GPU like the Pro Vega II is pretty alarming and unedifying in my view.
What do you need an NVIDIA card for?
AMD cards are as fast at OpenCL as NVIDIA.
Most Mac software is using OpenCL / Metal not Cuda.
There is nothing alarming, new faster AMD cards are under development.
 
What should be alarming to you that nvidia did not care enough about the users to make a proper driver or allow Apple to make the driver. Apple only barred them after. No one will ever know the whole truth. But nvidia high Sierra web driver caused lots of issues that nvidia could not or would not fix.
It was Apple, who was not interested in a NVIDIA driver.
 
It was Apple, who was not interested in a NVIDIA driver.

Your right apple was not interested in a half ass driver that nvidia had been releasing. It is well documented on this forum alone the problems with the nvidia web drivers and the bugs they caused. So Apple told them to shape up or we will stop signing your drivers.
 
What should be alarming to you that nvidia did not care enough about the users to make a proper driver or allow Apple to make the driver. Apple only barred them after. No one will ever know the whole truth. But nvidia high Sierra web driver caused lots of issues that nvidia could not or would not fix.

What do you need an NVIDIA card for?
AMD cards are as fast at OpenCL as NVIDIA.
Most Mac software is using OpenCL / Metal not Cuda.
There is nothing alarming, new faster AMD cards are under development.

I agree completely that the drivers under HS were pretty crappy. Nevertheless in my particular case when I swapped out my 1080ti for a Vega 56 in order to move to Mojave it was on balance a downgrade. Resolve performance under CUDA was superior to that under Metal and considerably superior to that under OpenCL. In addition Neat Video 4 became about half as fast due to the GPU providing no benefit. At the time I did the change the Vegas were the fastest GPUs sold by Apple while the 1080ti was already superseded by the 2080ti.

I stand to be corrected but I don't see NVIDIA's position on drivers to be a novel approach and in fact they also provide closed-source drivers for Linux which are used in many serious media workstations. "Most Mac software is using OpenCL / Metal not Cuda" simply because Apple has made this odd decision to exclusively champion the second-best GPU technology. Obviously no developer is going to support a GL that isn't out there. There was no customer push away from CUDA to (inferior) OpenCL and, now, Metal. It's been pushed by the vendor.
 
What do you need an NVIDIA card for?
All products from all creators are compromises between various values or capabilities. An entry-level nVidia graphics card such as the GT1030 trades off power consumption vs performance, as do all graphics cards from all manufacturers. With DDR5 video memory, it consumes 30 watts max and will run Heaven and Valley benchmarks at reasonable frame rates, considering that low power consumption. I am not currently aware of any AMD Radeon model that can do that. The nVidia GTX 1050 Ti OC consumes 75 watts max and runs correspondingly higher frame rates on those benchmarks, and again I do not find an AMD product that can match that combination of power consumption and performance. Certainly AMD is a fine company, but IMHO for Apple to exclude nVidia from competing with AMD can be detrimental to the end user.
 
, but IMHO for Apple to exclude nVidia from competing with AMD can be detrimental to the end user.

One day you will realize that it was Nvidia who excluded Nvidia from competing. The reality is Nvidia does not care about Mac users. Mac users are just a market share and a very small one. The Nvidia Mac users are so few Nvidia said your not worth it. If nvida cared they would have created the driver per the specifications apple provided them. The driver would have worked, and the Nvidia users could have their cake, the milk, and get to eat it too.
 
If nvida cared they would have created the driver per the specifications apple provided them.
Is it as simple as that? As much as we can know anything about this imbroglio it seems that Apple wants to have active input into the development of the driver and NVIDIA is not prepared to accede to this. That is their right. You could say that this means that they share responsibility with Apple for the impasse. But the charge of not caring is at least equally applicable (I say more applicable) to Apple since they are providing a notionally open, expandable platform and by their own policy are blocking access to a key potential component of that expandability. I say this mindful of the fact that NVIDIA appears to have no issue getting drivers working on Windows (including WHQL versions) in addition to Linux. It appears to be Apple alone that is creating some kind of unusual barrier to entry for NVIDIA. In any case a "care factor" should be irrelevant to a dry engineering and operational issue as this. Apple customers are gaining nothing for their inability to put a couple of RTX Quadros into their Mac Pros. My view is that the onus is on Apple, as the purveyor of the platform and in light of the long history and conventions of platform expandability over decades, to make its platform as attractive as possible to 3rd party suppliers particularly of subsystems as critical as the GPU. Apple, as you say, don't have the market position to dictate terms to NVIDIA and never will. You may recall that RED Digital Cinema implored Apple (if I remember correctly they aimed their comments directly at Apple) to clear this up so they could launch real-time 8K decoding on the Mac. They were demonstrating their new decoding engine on Xeon-based PCs with NVIDIA GPUs and were pretty clear that non-NVIDIA alternatives were not viable.
 
Last edited:
Is it as simple as that? As much as we can know anything about this imbroglio it seems that Apple wants to have active input into the development of the driver and NVIDIA is not prepared to accede to this. That is their right. You could say that this means that they share responsibility with Apple for the impasse. But the charge of not caring is at least equally applicable (I say more applicable) to Apple since they are providing a notionally open, expandable platform and by their own policy are blocking access to a key potential component of that expandability. I say this mindful of the fact that NVIDIA appears to have no issue getting drivers working on Windows (including WHQL versions) in addition to Linux. It appears to be Apple alone that is creating some kind of unusual barrier to entry for NVIDIA. In any case a "care factor" should be irrelevant to a dry engineering and operational issue as this. Apple customers are gaining nothing for their inability to put a couple of RTX Quadros into their Mac Pros. My view is that the onus is on Apple, as the purveyor of the platform and in light of the long history and conventions of platform expandability over decades, to make its platform as attractive as possible to 3rd party suppliers particularly of subsystems as critical as the GPU. Apple, as you say, don't have the market position to dictate terms to NVIDIA and never will. You may recall that RED Digital Cinema implored Apple (if I remember correctly they aimed their comments directly at Apple) to clear this up so they could launch real-time 8K decoding on the Mac. They were demonstrating their new decoding engine on Xeon-based PCs with NVIDIA GPUs and were pretty clear that non-NVIDIA alternatives were not viable.

Right up until Red said just kidding and developed the after burner card with apple. Judging by your response you must have forgot that Mac OS is made by Apple and they are the gate keepers. Apple customers are gaining a more stable system since Nvidia did not want to play by the rules. When you show up to someone else party you don't get to dictate the music selection you listen to what is playing. Nvidia was trying to play hip hop at death metal party and apple was over it.
 
Judging by your response you must have forgot that Mac OS is made by Apple and they are the gate keepers.
Nothing about my posts should lead to that conclusion. There's no memory loss. Of course they have that control. Their actions in exercising that control have consequences to users. In this case the Mac user base is denied the ability to use the indisputably superior GPU architecture that is available to similar products (i.e. PCs) running alternative systems. It just calls into question the whole notion of the Mac as a serious platform (particularly in media, which is my field) if they are so unable to partner with an industry leader like this and settle instead on an inferior option for many customers.

I just don't think Apple has ever fully understood the GPU world since the debacle of the 2013 Mac Pro.

BTW, can you check the facts on the Red situation because REDRAW is not supported by the Afterburner but they did announce REDRAW decoding in Metal, presumably on the GPU.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top