Another newb looking for general advice (possible mATX build)

Blue_Ocean · Dec 22, 2012

Hi guys. This is my first post and apologies in advance since I know there are many threads like this.

I currently have a 2008 24" iMac and a 2012 MBA 13". I love them both and they do the job for me. However, my Air pretty much dominates the iMac in almost every way and I only really end up using the iMac because of the screen. I've also become more interested in tinkering with hardware and the potential of building a powerful upgradeable Mac for less than a new iMac that I can use for gaming and audio production among other things. It seems like it's now reasonably hassle-free to the point where you can build a stable system without too much stress. I also feel more comfortable to do it knowing I'll always have my Air as a 'real' Mac for back up. This would be the first time I'd be building a computer.

So I'm generally a fan of small and quiet, hence I initially looked at BitterMelon's Prodigy build. However, I wanted a little extra expandability and I've quite taken to the Fractal Design Define Mini case so a mATX build would probably be better for me I think. I know there's not as much choice in that department but after reading around, I've come up with a provisional list of parts:

- MSI Z77MA-G45 motherboard mATX
- i5 3570K or 3470
- GTX 660Ti (whichever brand is cheapest)
- Crucial M4 512 GB SSD
- 16GB RAM (whatever works)
- Fractal Design Define Mini case
- Corsair HX 650W power supply
- TP Link TLWDN4800 wifi PCI card
- Dell 24" IPS 2412 monitor

Some questions about these:

- As I understand the MSI board should work perfectly as long as I just flash a BIOS that unlocks the power management right? Is there any other reason why Gigabyte boards might be easier or just this?
- I don't plan to OC but having a Z77 it's tempting to get the 3570K. I just don't know if it's worth the extra expense. Also, I'm guessing having a processor with HD2500 graphics (if I go for the lower one) wouldn't make any different if I'm going with a dGPU right?
- Power supply - is it overkill?
- Finally, I do amateur music production stuff. Are there any PCI audio cards or interfaces that work well with OS X or would I be confined to something external? If this is the case, I wonder whether mini ITX wouldn't be so much of a compromise?

All this is speculative at the moment. Since I don't need it right now, does anyone know whether Haswell would provide enough of an upgrade for me to hold out until summer or whenever Macs start coming with them in? Or would I not be losing out too much by sticking with Ivy Bridge?

Sorry about the long post - and thanks in advance. These forums have been very helpful already but I'm still learning so apologies if some of these questions are a little obvious.

samisnake · Dec 22, 2012

Blue_Ocean said:
- As I understand the MSI board should work perfectly as long as I just flash a BIOS that unlocks the power management right? Is there any other reason why Gigabyte boards might be easier or just this?

have you seen this thread?
http://www.tonymacx86.com/buying-advice/73558-z77-matx-motherboards-os-x.html

if you havent, its a great read, and shows what is needed for that board, and how easy it is to set up. in short, yes its just the bios you need to flash, but other than that itll install the same as a giga board

- I don't plan to OC but having a Z77 it's tempting to get the 3570K. I just don't know if it's worth the extra expense. Also, I'm guessing having a processor with HD2500 graphics (if I go for the lower one) wouldn't make any different if I'm going with a dGPU right?

on newegg, theres a $20 difference between the 3470 and the 3570k.
imo for the overclocking ability and the resale value, i would get the 3570k. if later on down the line you want more power out of your system, you can with the K. if you buy the 3470, you might kick yourself for not spending that extra 10%.

- Power supply - is it overkill?

psu is fine

- Finally, I do amateur music production stuff. Are there any PCI audio cards or interfaces that work well with OS X or would I be confined to something external? If this is the case, I wonder whether mini ITX wouldn't be so much of a compromise?

youll want external in my opinion.
you can get internal (maudio iirc) but youll be limited to what you can get. im not an audio person, but from people i know who are, firewire or usb soundcards/interfaces are the way to go.

All this is speculative at the moment. Since I don't need it right now, does anyone know whether Haswell would provide enough of an upgrade for me to hold out until summer or whenever Macs start coming with them in? Or would I not be losing out too much by sticking with Ivy Bridge?

we dont know how haswell will perform, so thats hard to say.
as itll be a new architecture jump, rather than a die shrink like sandy to ivy, we can assume the performance increase will be something worthwhile.
on the other hand it could be a Bulldozer (unlikely though). time will tell.

generally, apple supports new cpus around 6 months after theyve launched.
except in the case of lga2011, which apple still hasnt used in a product yet, and is partially supported in osx.

Blue_Ocean · Dec 22, 2012

samisnake said:
have you seen this thread?
http://www.tonymacx86.com/buying-advice/73558-z77-matx-motherboards-os-x.html

Thanks man. Yeah I did read the thread which is where I decided that the MSI was probably the best mATX motherboard for me. I also saw that you have the custom BIOS for it on your site so I guess it shouldn't take much effort to flash it.

Thanks also for the rest of the info. Depending on how itchy I get to put something together, I'll try hold back and survey the landscape a little more/wait to hear a bit more about Haswell maybe. It probably won't be a big loss if I took the plunge now but we'll see. If it were just a case of a new processor I wouldn't mind but seeing as the socket/motherboard will change I think, I'm erring on the side of caution.

samisnake · Dec 22, 2012

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/28318-haswell-to-be-10 -percent-faster-than-ivy-bridge

Intel tells its partners to expect that Haswell should end up at least 10 percent faster than Ivy Bridge based cores at the same clock.

now thats just projections, but if it does come out to be 10-20% faster, you wont exactly be gutted that you have an ivy.
add to that apple taking a while to fully add support for haswell, i wouldnt have buyers remorse with an ivy setup.

looking at a few other articles, the comments arent that positive, with people saying they see it more as a bump up from ivy, evolution rather than revolution.

i dunno, im going to wait before its out and reviewed before making my mind up about haswell, but one thing for sure is that you wouldnt feel regret with an ivy system (ivy imacs have just come out too, so if you felt regret, imagine how theyd feel)

skaker · Dec 22, 2012

My office build uses the Define Mini, and it's very quiet (essentially inaudible). It is not, however, small. It's the same size as a 'normal' mid-atx case (most mid-atx cases nowadays are as big as previous full-atx cases...size apparently matters).

The plus side to this is there's a lot of room inside. Building is easy and there's plenty of room for expansion.

In regards to your build, I second samisnake that there's no need to wait for haswell. Intel reps have stated many times that the primary upgrade will be igfx performance. Ivy Bridge wasn't just a die shrink, it had almost the same IPC improvements previous 'tocks' had. Since you're planning on using an add-in gfx card, there's no need to wait, you won't be missing much in terms of cpu power 18 months from now.

I'd also go for the 3570k, very small price difference, potentially significant performance improvement (especially if you OC).

You can get by with less PSU. I have a fanless 500W power supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182169) that has no trouble powering an overclocked 3770k and gtx680 fully loaded. You can get one cheaper by dropping down from platinum, but I'd still reccomend fanless, temps are not a problem in the Define Mini, and silence is golden.

EDIT: You mentioned you don't plan to overclock. Certainly understandable, but it's quite possible to do a mild overclock, while also decreasing voltage and power draw compared to stock settings. You can get improved performance while also decreasing heat (noise...) and power draw...

Blue_Ocean · Dec 23, 2012

samisnake said:
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/28318-haswell-to-be-10 -percent-faster-than-ivy-bridge

now thats just projections, but if it does come out to be 10-20% faster, you wont exactly be gutted that you have an ivy.
add to that apple taking a while to fully add support for haswell, i wouldnt have buyers remorse with an ivy setup.

I did a bit of reading last night myself and came to similar conclusions. I believe the main differences will be in the integrated graphics which is great for MacBooks and the like but would make no difference to me; and I think an integrated Thunderbolt controller. But to be honest, I'm not sure how much I need TB ports - again, it's more useful on laptops I think (my Air has one if I really needed it but seems unlikely). USB 3 seems like it will become more of the standard USB 2 has become and TB will probably take the place of Firewire as a relatively niche form of connector, though superior.

In any case, it seems like my parents would give me a bit of money to take the iMac off my hands so I might go for an Ivy build after all.

skaker said:
My office build uses the Define Mini, and it's very quiet (essentially inaudible). It is not, however, small. It's the same size as a 'normal' mid-atx case (most mid-atx cases nowadays are as big as previous full-atx cases...size apparently matters).

The plus side to this is there's a lot of room inside. Building is easy and there's plenty of room for expansion.

I'd like to see a Prodigy and Define Mini side-by-side. Apart from depth, the dimensions on their websites seem quite similar, though I know this is probably to do with the 'handles' on the Prodigy. The Define still seems a lot smaller when I've seen it next to things like a HAF but I guess I'm still a bit unsure whether to go for the mini ITX instead. The Define also appeals to me because of the cable management being cleaner inside and not as much of a squeeze with PSUs as the Prodigy.

If it seems like other PCI cards might not play nice with OS X anyway, then provided I replaced the wifi card in the Gigabyte Z77N WIFI, the only thing I think I'd be losing is the 2 extra RAM slots, which does still bother me a bit admittedly. Though by the time I need 32GB, it may be time to replace the entire motherboard anyway.

skaker said:
You can get by with less PSU. I have a fanless 500W power supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817182169) that has no trouble powering an overclocked 3770k and gtx680 fully loaded. You can get one cheaper by dropping down from platinum, but I'd still reccomend fanless, temps are not a problem in the Define Mini, and silence is golden.

EDIT: You mentioned you don't plan to overclock. Certainly understandable, but it's quite possible to do a mild overclock, while also decreasing voltage and power draw compared to stock settings. You can get improved performance while also decreasing heat (noise...) and power draw...

I used http://www.extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine as a rough guide and sort of 'maxed' out what I might use. It came to 488w so I was thinking maybe 550W to be on the safe side. The HX series doesn't go that low but I picked the 650 because it is Gold rated, modular and has a fan that only kicks in under high loads. But I'm definitely open to suggestions. I looked at the Antec Platinum 550W http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B009ODY8AW/?tag=tonymacx86-21 but supposedly it hasn't gotten the best reviews and it is not modular (and loud!).

The one you gave me doesn't seem easily available in the UK unfortunately. I'll have a bit more of a look.

On the OC front, I'm sure if I get the K and have a Z77 mobo, I'd probably give it a go under 'safe' parameters once I'm a bit more confident that everything else works! If you have the option, it's hard not to experiment

Thanks

Going Bald · Dec 23, 2012

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/550w...0-plus-gold-sli-crossfire-eps-12v-fan-atx-v23 has had good reviews and is quiet.

Blue_Ocean · Dec 23, 2012

Going Bald said:
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/550w-be-quiet!-dark-power-pro-10-bn200-modular-93-eff-80-plus-gold-sli-crossfire-eps-12v-fan-atx-v23 has had good reviews and is quiet.

That does look good. But it's more expensive than the HX and also bigger for some reason! They're both gold rated so with the same components and same efficiency rating, a 650w won't use more electricity than a 550w, one just has a higher peak, right? Or am I mistaken?

skaker · Dec 23, 2012

Blue_Ocean said:
That does look good. But it's more expensive than the HX and also bigger for some reason! They're both gold rated so with the same components and same efficiency rating, a 650w won't use more electricity than a 550w, one just has a higher peak, right? Or am I mistaken?

Probably pretty close.

Check out this review...

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1313-page1.html

Great PSU, but also look at page 4, has a noise comparison of a lot of PSU's in the range you're considering.

Blue_Ocean · Dec 23, 2012

skaker said:
Probably pretty close.

Check out this review...

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1313-page1.html

Great PSU, but also look at page 4, has a noise comparison of a lot of PSU's in the range you're considering.

Brilliant link!

Unfortunately the Seasonic is a bit pricey and also doesn't seem to be available in the UK, which is a shame. But the BeQuiet seems promising if I can get a good deal and if I decide to go for mATX rather than ITX.

Edit: Noticed you have a Gigabyte z77 mATX motherboard. How does that work out for you, especially with the non-Realtek audio?

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Another newb looking for general advice (possible mATX build)

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