Save $$$, buy used?

(tl:dr in two parts)

Hello forums. I've been lurking here a bit, scanning for info and guides when I was trying my first hack but never really got around to posting. I, unlike too many internet users, try to search for solutions to my problems before I make a post .


I am a musician who uses Apple's Logic pretty much exclusively and that is my main reason to use OSX. My current audio gear works well with my current system and I've had no real issues there.


With the arrival of Skylake, I've had a hankering to do a new build and make a high powered workstation... But I kinda feel that jumping to Skylake at this stage of its development is... premature?

The system I would ideally have would be an unlocked i7, 32gb ram, maybe repurpose my GTX 970, USB-C/Thunderbolt 3, m.2 boot drive... This is really starting to sound expensive, especially considering my current (legacy) audio hardware, and, the fact is, at the moment, Skylake seems juvenile and untested in the hack realm (please correct me if I'm wrong).


I've also had a (now-suppressed) urge to make a mini-hack NUC or Brix but don't see myself making the most use of it.


(tl;dr part 1)


I've been browsing local classifieds and I see a LOT of first-gen, a good number of 2nd gen, and a few 3rd gen i5 and i7 desktops for sale and cheap. One ad I'm waiting to get a reply from listed "i7 8gb ram 1TB HD $300" (it didn't list the i7 model and that's the reply I'm waiting for).


How badly could this go wrong?

I have two main concerns

1. Basic age of system. I don't think I'm interested in 1st gen Core CPUs, but if I find a good deal for Sandy or Ivy Bridge i7s I think I would jump on it... but my next point is...

2. Prebuilt systems. Too too common, "HP Desktop i7 8gb ram" is all the description you get. What are the chances that the motherboard on a prebuilt "HP desktop" is going to be something that can be worked into a hack build?

I enjoy a challenge, but I prefer to bet on a winning horse.


Secondary concerns.

1. Damaged goods. Anyone have a checklist for buying used computers or parts?

2. If I want to buy used, maybe I should forget the "desktop for sale" and just go to eBay for a CPU and other things.


(tl;dr final)

I'm thinking about buying a used computer if I find a good deal on something decent. Is this (a.) a bad idea and (b.) should I have any expectation that it's hack-able and (c.) should I stop pussyfooting around and just build a new system from scratch?

I have two main concerns

1. Basic age of system. I don't think I'm interested in 1st gen Core CPUs, but if I find a good deal for Sandy or Ivy Bridge i7s I think I would jump on it... but my next point is...

2. Prebuilt systems. Too too common, "HP Desktop i7 8gb ram" is all the description you get. What are the chances that the motherboard on a prebuilt "HP desktop" is going to be something that can be worked into a hack build?

Click to expand...

You can find professionally refurbished HP Elite 8200s and 8300s quite easily for around the 300 dollar
or less price range. It's easy to install OS X on either of these Sandy or Ivy Bridge systems. You'll
just need a basic compatible graphics card. An I7 IvyBridge (8300) would be the best choice but will cost
more than others with less powerful CPUs will.

Arrow Direct is one of the biggest companies that sells these units at good prices, check out their website or ones they have for sale on Amazon or Ebay.

Make sure to get at least the SFF or CMT (mini-tower) form factor as the small (USDT) "mini" versions
have no PCI-e slot for a gfx card that is necessary. You can use their code "ARROW" to get a nice 15%
off on your total purchase cost. Here's an example. You can get an I5-3570 SFF system for about $325
after using the discount code. http://arrowdirect.com/hp-compaq-el...i5-gen3-small-form-factor-250gb-8192mb-8.html
add another 8 GB of ram and a low profile GPU like a GT610 for graphics. If you need to use the 970 though, I don't think the PSU has enough power for it to run well if at all.

It's a decent deal for the small amount of money invested. Downside is none come with "K" version CPUs so no overclocking in one of the 8200's or 8300's by HP.

sendrith said:

I'm thinking about buying a used computer if I find a good deal on something decent. Is this (a.) a bad idea and (b.) should I have any expectation that it's hack-able and (c.) should I stop pussyfooting around and just build a new system from scratch?

Click to expand...

New doesn't always mean trouble-free; the same compatibility gotchas apply to both used and new hardware. Also, buying new you could always get a dud (ask me about OCZ SSDs a few years back!); hey, at least the used stuff has been "tested" .

I like trs96's idea of looking into manufacturer-refurbished hardware. Not only has that stuff been "tested", but it has been looked over by the manufacturer and is certified working! I've owned several refurbished computer products over the years, and have never regretted them.

I've owned several refurbished computer products over the years, and have never regretted them.

Click to expand...

+1 Some of the older hardware, like the cases these come in, are made from very thick high quality steel. There is actually no flex at all in the side panels on the SFF and USDT versions I've bought. The design is nearly 100 % toolless. Also suprisingly quiet for a business desktop PC.

Also good to know that you are keeping computer hardware out of a landfill by not buying new and getting a quality refurb. http://www.arrowvaluerecovery.com/resources/reports-insights/e-waste-recycling/

If there is ever anything wrong, you can send it back and Arrow will pay all the return shipping costs. (within 30 days) No restocking fees either.

Thanks for the link! I never considered professionally refurbished. I'm in Canada so I'll be pretty unhappy about the exchange rate but the coupon code will make up for that. My shipping quote was $0.00 so that could be good too.


I'm thinking about something like this...

http://arrowdirect.com/lenovo-think...ntel-core-i7-gen2-desktop-300gb-4096mb-1.html


From what I can gather here -- https://www.lenovo.com/shop/americas/content/pdf/system_data/m91p_tower_tech_specs.pdf, Intel Q67 Express chipset mobo, which seems to be hackable without any real issues.

• Found this after looking too long in the wrong places.
  https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/thinkcentre_pdf/0a22862_m91_p_tower_ug_en.pdf
  
  First document says max 16GB RAM, second says max is 32GB. 4 slots, dual channel. Intel says max is 32GB for i7 2600...
  
  $380: Lenovo i7 tower ($275 after discount code, but convert to Canadian... Dollar sucks right now)
  $200ish: 32GB RAM upgrade (looks like 4x8gb 1600 is less $$$ than 1333... Funny)
  $130: Samsung 850 EVO 256GB... Or just take the SSD out of my current hack and leave that machine as a gaming machine and this as the hack.
  
  Say I don't get a new SSD (I actually have another I could repurpose), a $600 Core i7 workstation with 32GB ram sounds MIGHTY tempting.
  
  ​

@sendrith

Just so you know, they will often call the SFFs "Desktops" which is not to be confused with the
Tower Desktop. So if you want the Tower form factor, check with Arrow to make sure that is what
you are getting with that I7 system. Would be nice if they only put the pic of what you are actually
getting with the spec info on that page.

I hate to be that guy but I made the impulse buy before I read your post. I have an inquiry in to support there to hopefully identify what exactly I bought and maybe go back on it and refund and get something different.


But...

https://support.lenovo.com/ca/fr/documents/migr-76792

It seems like the SFF (which, I have a very funny feeling, is what I put my credit card down against) has pretty much the exact same specs as the tower version.

No space for a full size GPU? Fine. I want something for audio production. I don't do graphics or video. I can leave my current hack as my "gaming" rig. If it will drive 2x 1080p displays I have no need to upgrade the GPU (which a 1gb GPU should be able to do).

Still has 4 ram slots. I'll pull the ram from my current hack as well as a spare 4gb stick I have and see if it reads more than 16gb. If it doesn't? 32gb is probably overkill for me anyways.


Beyond that, am I missing something crucial?

It seems like the SFF (which, I have a very funny feeling, is what I put my credit card down against) has pretty much the exact same specs as the tower version.

Click to expand...

No worries, if it's not what you want, they take it back no ?s asked, no charges. I do like the HP
SFF chassis, sure saves a lot of desk space and an inexpensive low profile gfx card does just fine
for basic video usage. The only downside with a SFF case and an I7 is getting enough air flow
through the case to cool it. I've never bought Lenovo, so you'll just have to stress test it and
find out how good their stock cooling is. Without any overclock it should be OK.

Looking at other retailers like Newegg and Office Depot they all show the SFF case for that model.

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/242722/Lenovo-ThinkCentre-M91p-Desktop-Computer-With/

I'll make a small update here and make a thread over in Builds when I really get around to it.


The Lenovo has arrived! Arrow was kind enough to ship for free, and also included a keyboard and mouse that I did not expect (...nor, want? Whatever. Nice gesture).


(Kinda) unfortunately, it's the SFF case. The response I got from support @ arrowdirect was "It's not the SFF or the Tower, its the Desktop". Which apparently means SFF. Thanks, Charlene.

I can see the size of the case being a potential issue. Because of the width (depth?), there isn't any room to place expansion cards, despite having PCIe x16 (1), PCIe x4 (1) and PCI (2) slots. Everything will be too tall to fit into the case. My aims with this was audio work; my good audio interface is FireWire connected, so I was planning on using maybe a PCI slot for a FW card and the PCIe x4 slot for USB3.

Since there are no expansion cards... This means I'm running the Intel HD 2000 iGPU. Apparently this might be a small issue in OSX. The board has a VGA and a DP output, VGA is good to go but I need an adaptor for the DP (to HDMI) to see if that'll go -- The Plan is for 2x 1080p 27" monitors. Alternatively I have an external video card that could work (worked on my current hack) but it's not great - picture quality suffers.

I pulled the RAM out of my other computer and another card that I had stashed away and plugged them all in and in Win 7 it read 24GB of RAM. Looks like 32GB workstation will be doable.

The included 300GB HDD grinds/clicks a bit and I'm not too thrilled about that, but I wasn't really planning on using it so I'm not sure if I'm going to make an issue about it. I initially thought it was a fan clicking (there's one 60mm case fan at the front as well as the CPU fan) but I got right in there and it's the HDD.


One concern I'm having is the mobo and the bios. Q67 chip seems to be supported but the mobo appears to be a Lenovo-made board. I didn't even think about that. It seems that the BIOS is Lenovo's own as well.

HDD was already set to AHCI mode so that's all good...


So I guess I'll get a SSD and get to hackin'! Wish me luck.



One consideration that would solve a few issues would be to just put everything in a new case.

Since there are no expansion cards... This means I'm running the Intel HD 2000 iGPU. Apparently this might be a small issue in OSX. The board has a VGA and a DP output, VGA is good to go but I need an adaptor for the DP (to HDMI) to see if that'll go -- The Plan is for 2x 1080p 27" monitors. Alternatively I have an external video card that could work (worked on my current hack) but it's not great - picture quality suffers.

Click to expand...

The HD2000 isn't compatible with OS X. The solution is a low cost, low profile GT 210/610 that has DVI, HDMI and VGA outputs. You can then easily get 1080p on two monitors. The links to these are listed in the EZ 8000 thread here: http://www.tonymacx86.com/user-buil...o-e8400-affordable-customac-media-center.html The Passive heatsink is helpful to keep noise down.

There is a pic of the Asus EN210 further down in the post so that you can see how large the heatsink is.
If in doubt, go with the thinner EVGA version which should easily fit on any motherboard.

The Elite 8300s would work with onboard HD 4000 graphics but the cost is significantly higher than what you paid for your Lenovo. www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883283335
I'm hoping that more Mini Towers with the I7-3770 become available later this year and next.

If you already have a full height GT 520 the easy solution is to put a low profile bracket on it. They cost maybe a dollar. You can see how my GT210 is set up in the User Build the EZ 8000. I kept the VGA port. Both brackets came with the 210.