Z490 & Z590 - Will Z590 ever have macOS Support ?

[UtterDisbelief]

So you're saying it is identifying the real id of the iGPU 0x9BC8 / 0x9BC5 ??

Yes, it identifies the iGPU correctly in System Report.

I then tried fake IDs and device IDs in the Device Properties - PciRoot(0x0)/Pci(0x2,0x0) - 07009B3E etc. etc. along with most of the other settings available. Didn't crack it.

 

[dehjomz]

There is nothing new about this situation WRT evolving standards and interfaces.

Apple couldn't figure out USB on Intel Macs for a long long time even though Apple leas the launch USB.
...

The discontentment is due to the price and also the terrible customer support. I understand it takes time to debug new platforms, as the panoply of problems users will run into cannot accurately be predicted in the lab.

But these Z590 boards aren’t cheap, they won’t support future Intel processors (i.e., they are a dead end), and, yet, they have more usability problems than the cheaper Z490 boards they replace. Broken Thunderbolt hot-plug is a fundamental problem. I cannot understand how these things were put onto the market with marketing materials that do not fully match the actual experience.

Where is the extra money going, besides down the drain?

 

[dehjomz]

Yet another BIOS for Z590i Vision D is out F5d. This is fourth one in three weeks - something is definitely not good with this board.

It seems that perhaps all the gigabyte z590 motherboards have been receiving updated beta bioses almost around the clock… still no thunderbolt3 hotplug…on the z590 vision d.

I truly believe the z490 Vision D will age like fine wine. Very quick to post, and the Titan Ridge implementation works well with all of my thunderbolt devices including thunderbolt4. And it has pcie 4.0 capability with rocket lake, and you can use the top m.2 with comet lake at 3.0 speeds, or with rocket lake at 4.0 speeds. Some z590 motherboards disable the top m.2 slot if comet lake is installed, which is perplexing, given that some z490 motherboards have the flexibility to use all m.2 slots regardless of what processor is installed.

Almost like a different engineering team engineered these z590 boards… they look very pretty, but the launch bios implementation doesn’t seem as polished as z490. For example, the f5 bios on the z490 vision d is a charm… but some of the early beta bioses for z590 have been a disaster in terms of stability or breaking xmp or very slow to post.

 

[c-o-pr]

I truly believe the Z490 Vision D will age like fine wine. Very quick to post, and the Titan Ridge implementation works well with all of my thunderbolt devices including thunderbolt4.

My trouble with long POST on ASUS Max cleared up once I got to OC-post-install config re RTC patch. Now that macOS isn't bombing the board at shutdown it spends less time in POST. CFG Lock patch not necessary as "MSR E2" tested writable.

You talk about Thunderbolt 4 like it's a done deal, but it's not obvious to me. What peripherals are even available, and USB 4 is barely out of gate. So expectations should be low right now.

I can't get a display connected to onboard iGPU to work past unaccelerated with 7MB framebuffer. I don't care a lot 'cause W5700 works well and VDA seems to work iGPU 630 with full framebuffer seen.

I've been using a DP to HDMI to DVI cable with an old Dell. This works with mDP output from W5700, but the same unit type-C output doesn't sync properly. The display is detected as correct model / res, but stays black, with an occasional flicker. USB 10Gbs over the W5700 type-C works.

When HDMI/DVI is attached to iGPU it's not detected no matter what WEG FB patch config I've tried. I'm waiting on a long DP cable then will try the iGPU type-C connector. Hopefully this will work then I can figure out busid,pipe combo to get whole iGPU going. Or maybe not?

I tried latest Ubuntu on this ASUS Max and it doesn't know what to do with iGPU either and dies. I have to boot safe graphics then it works. I tried very latest kernel and it didn't work except in safe.

I am running the beta BIOS V704 for this board (Maximus Hero VIII).

Since I got type-C ports working with USBmap, the TB controller no longer appears in System Info. But as I'm tweaking so many factors it's tough to keep straight.

I'd like to get TB working but no need at moment and even a cheap adapter / switch is $50–200 and seems lame due to short cable. USB4 is future with longer cables

Re your point about PCIe 4 and slot restrictions: the signalling rates and lane assignments are a proper technical bugaboo which are necessary compromises. The Vision 490 you mention with PCIe 4 doesn't do latest USB, no? Progress in incremental.

I most definitely feel your pain re missed expectations and un-baked releases.

So far this ASUS is meeting my expectations, but mine may be lower than yours I'm having fun and looking forward to improvements.

 

[dehjomz]

My trouble with long POST on ASUS Max cleared up once I got to OC-post-install config re RTC patch. Now that macOS isn't bombing the board at shutdown it spends less time in POST. CFG Lock patch not necessary as "MSR E2" tested writable.
...

Well that’s good that you’re happy with a beta experience.

My issue isn’t so much so that problems can’t be fixed. My issue really is at the end of the day I want Intel and it’s partners to succeed. Same with AMD and Apple. But some of the problems with Z590 are so fundamental that it begs to wonder why rocket lake was even launched in March.

Regarding Z590, the following tidbits are experiences that some people have had:

• They couldn’t get XMP running at all on early BIOSs (with memory kits that had zero problems running at XMP in motherboards from years ago).
• Thunderbolt hot-plug is broken for some Thunderbolt 3 peripherals.
• Some motherboards do not hold the overclock when the processor is under load, despite setting a 0 avx offset, as well as disabling TVB frequency clipping. Some of the early BIOSs downclock the CPU and override any overclocking settings when the CPU is under load on all cores.
• Others have found that sometimes their Intel network controller disappears and only comes back if they cut power to the motherboard or if they clear cmos.

These are fundamental usability problems that ruin the user experience and did not occur on my 2018 Macintosh or my Z490 Vision D.

Z590 costs more than its predecessor, but has a variety of issues, and in some ways is an experiential regression. This must be called out for what it is.

The products were released in a beta state. The Asus HERO’s 0704 BIOS you mention is a beta BIOS, same with the f5d BIOS on the Z590 Vision D. The release BIOSs were even worse, only good thing with the Asus HERO’s release BIOS is that it had Thunderbolt 3 hot-plug functionality. 0704 may have broken that with its update to the version 26 of the NVM of the Maple Ridge controller.

Regarding your point about Thunderbolt 4 being a done deal, that’s not my position. My position is that the compatibility and stability issues we’re seeing (such as network controllers disappearing unless you clear cmos or cut power to the board) shouldn’t even be occurring in the first place. Regarding broken thunderbolt3 hotplug, the Thunderbolt 4 marketing materials claim: “backward compatibility with thunderbolt3.” But this is only true (on some motherboards if the Thunderbolt 3 device is plugged in prior to boot time.

I figure they’ll iron these issues out but these fundamental problems aren’t a good look for Intel. They used to be better than this.

Finally, regarding your point of the Z490 Vision D not doing the latest USB, I’m not sure I understand what you mean. It doesn’t have USB 3.2 20Gbps on the front panel connector (unlike some Z590 motherboards), and it has a Titan Ridge controller, compared to maple ridge on Z590. But Gigabyte’s Titan Ridge implementation is solid with its NVM50, and is roughly the same speed as Thunderbolt 4. With Thunderbolt 4, Intel didn’t update the maximum speed, it still tops out at 40 Gbps. Instead Intel updated the minimum specifications of what could be certified as Thunderbolt 4. With Thunderbolt 3, some implementations topped out at 20 Gbps, others at 40 Gbps. With Thunderbolt 4, the minimum (and maximum) is 40 G\bps. This should quell user confusion.

Titan Ridge is just fine, and I have yet to see what the benefit of Maple Ridge is, given Titan Ridge has working hot-plug and Maple Ridge doesn’t (at least on the Z590 Vision D). Gigabyte’s stock Titan Ridge nvm50 even supports the new Thunderbolt hubbing feature that has been implemented in some new Thunderbolt 4 docks in both Windows and macOS. So Titan Ridge is just fine. Although I don’t think the custom firmware that enables Thunderbolt bus in macOS on the Z490 Vision D is compatible with the Thunderbolt hubbing feature of the new Goshen Ridge Thunderbolt 4 docks.

 

[dehjomz]

Apple has dropped a new iMac based on the M1…

 

[Feartech]

Apple has dropped a new iMac based the M1…

hope it was insured....

 

[dehjomz]

hope it was insured....

Haha.

Insured from Rocket Lake’s power consumption.

Apple has also released a new keyboard that has Touch ID built in. As well as a new iPad Pro with M1 inside, a Thunderbolt/USB4 port, and a mini LED display.

 

[c-o-pr]

Finally, regarding your point of the Z490 Vision D not doing the latest USB, I’m not sure I understand what you mean. It doesn’t have USB 3.2 20Gbps on the front panel connector (unlike some Z590 motherboards), and it has a Titan Ridge controller, compared to maple ridge on Z590. But Gigabyte’s Titan Ridge implementation is solid with its NVM50, and is roughly the same speed as Thunderbolt 4. With Thunderbolt 4, Intel didn’t update the maximum speed, it still tops out at 40 Gbps. Instead Intel updated the minimum specifications of what could be certified as Thunderbolt 4. With Thunderbolt 3, some implementations topped out at 20 Gbps, others at 40 Gbps. With Thunderbolt 4, the minimum (and maximum) is 40 G\bps. This should quell user confusion.

Titan Ridge is just fine, and I have yet to see what the benefit of Maple Ridge is, given Titan Ridge has working hot-plug and Maple Ridge doesn’t (at least on the Z590 Vision D). Gigabyte’s stock Titan Ridge nvm50 even supports the new Thunderbolt hubbing feature that has been implemented in some new Thunderbolt 4 docks in both Windows and macOS. So Titan Ridge is just fine. Although I don’t think the custom firmware that enables Thunderbolt bus in macOS on the Z490 Vision D is compatible with the Thunderbolt hubbing feature of the new Goshen Ridge Thunderbolt 4 docks.

I'll point out that when you write approvingly about "some implementations" regard for "Intel's minimum specification" you acknowledge that there are accepted degrees of freedom for completeness. Well, right now z590 makers are just playing with these degrees of freedom!

Why do I make this stupid joke? Only to point out that in end the total systems correctness is a responsibility of the system integrator, and here, in these wilds, the systems integrator is us!

How does cable length figure into points you are making? Given: Length and speed are always working against each other... What happens in USB? How do they route 20Gbs gen 2x2 through header over long inner case cable to port on front panel, but we are stuck with 6in accessory cable? Does USB4 allow longer accessory cables at top speed?

 

[mattystonnie]

Well that’s good that you’re happy with a beta experience.

My issue isn’t so much so that problems can’t be fixed. My issue really is at the end of the day I want Intel and it’s partners to succeed. Same with AMD and Apple. But some of the problems with Z590 are so fundamental that it begs to wonder why rocket lake was even launched in March.

Regarding Z590, the following tidbits are experiences that some people have had:

• They couldn’t get XMP running at all on early BIOSs (with memory kits that had zero problems running at XMP in motherboards from years ago).
• Thunderbolt hot-plug is broken for some Thunderbolt 3 peripherals.
• Some motherboards do not hold the overclock when the processor is under load, despite setting a 0 avx offset, as well as disabling TVB frequency clipping. Some of the early BIOSs downclock the CPU and override any overclocking settings when the CPU is under load on all cores.
• Others have found that sometimes their Intel network controller disappears and only comes back if they cut power to the motherboard or if they clear cmos.

These are fundamental usability problems that ruin the user experience and did not occur on my 2018 Macintosh or my Z490 Vision D.

Z590 costs more than its predecessor, but has a variety of issues, and in some ways is an experiential regression. This must be called out for what it is.

The products were released in a beta state. The Asus HERO’s 0704 BIOS you mention is a beta BIOS, same with the f5d BIOS on the Z590 Vision D. The release BIOSs were even worse, only good thing with the Asus HERO’s release BIOS is that it had Thunderbolt 3 hot-plug functionality. 0704 may have broken that with its update to the version 26 of the NVM of the Maple Ridge controller.

Regarding your point about Thunderbolt 4 being a done deal, that’s not my position. My position is that the compatibility and stability issues we’re seeing (such as network controllers disappearing unless you clear cmos or cut power to the board) shouldn’t even be occurring in the first place. Regarding broken thunderbolt3 hotplug, the Thunderbolt 4 marketing materials claim: “backward compatibility with thunderbolt3.” But this is only true (on some motherboards if the Thunderbolt 3 device is plugged in prior to boot time.

I figure they’ll iron these issues out but these fundamental problems aren’t a good look for Intel. They used to be better than this.

Finally, regarding your point of the Z490 Vision D not doing the latest USB, I’m not sure I understand what you mean. It doesn’t have USB 3.2 20Gbps on the front panel connector (unlike some Z590 motherboards), and it has a Titan Ridge controller, compared to maple ridge on Z590. But Gigabyte’s Titan Ridge implementation is solid with its NVM50, and is roughly the same speed as Thunderbolt 4. With Thunderbolt 4, Intel didn’t update the maximum speed, it still tops out at 40 Gbps. Instead Intel updated the minimum specifications of what could be certified as Thunderbolt 4. With Thunderbolt 3, some implementations topped out at 20 Gbps, others at 40 Gbps. With Thunderbolt 4, the minimum (and maximum) is 40 G\bps. This should quell user confusion.

Titan Ridge is just fine, and I have yet to see what the benefit of Maple Ridge is, given Titan Ridge has working hot-plug and Maple Ridge doesn’t (at least on the Z590 Vision D). Gigabyte’s stock Titan Ridge nvm50 even supports the new Thunderbolt hubbing feature that has been implemented in some new Thunderbolt 4 docks in both Windows and macOS. So Titan Ridge is just fine. Although I don’t think the custom firmware that enables Thunderbolt bus in macOS on the Z490 Vision D is compatible with the Thunderbolt hubbing feature of the new Goshen Ridge Thunderbolt 4 docks.

On Ubuntu you will need to install an OEM kernel that will enable the IGPU output : sudo apt install linux-oem-20.04b

Tested with Linux Mint and worked.